Beyond Blue on the healing power of authentic storytelling
Cinnamon Pollard and Sarah Alexander from Beyond Blue, sit down with Mark Jones to discuss the Beyond Blue brand journey from vocal advocacy to practical support, and the healing power of storytelling behind it all.
Beyond Blue is an independent, not-for-profit organisation that exists to “help every Australian achieve their best mental health, whatever their age and wherever they live.”
They’ve been a positive force for change for more than 20 years, so were surprised by the discovery that the public had little knowledge of the large range of services and support on offer.
“People know that we provide mental health support. Some people think that it's a men's mental health organisation, while other people only know us for our phone support service. Beyond Blue actually offers a really diverse range of products and services across the whole mental health continuum,” says Cinnamon Pollard, Chief Experience Officer at Beyond Blue.
With more than 3 million Australians living with depression and anxiety, Beyond Blue has sought for new ways to connect with their target audience - everyone in the country - by not only drawing on the brand’s strong history, but by drawing on insights from those closest to the cause.
“The way in which I look at it is that we have built storytelling into every level of our organisation. And so it informs absolutely everything that we do,” Cinnamon says.
“Empathy, trust and safety are the conditions [of storytelling]. For our World Suicide Prevention Day campaign last year...people filmed the stories themselves on their phones and sent us the footage. And because they did it in the comfort of their own home, they felt safe. It was so real, raw, and powerful.”
Sarah Alexander, Executive Producer of Beyond Blue’s Not Alone podcast says this shift towards an inclusive and community-focused narrative has enabled the brand to address the stigmas around mental health, and encourage every Australian to talk about their unique story.
“We have a vehicle of sharing these lived experiences and opening up the discussions around mental health in general. That has a flow on effect within our immediate Beyond Blue community, that goes beyond that.”
To hear more from the team at Beyond Blue and find out how marketers can use the power of storytelling to create a positive impact - tune into this episode of The CMO Show.
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Transcript
Host: Mark Jones
Guests: Cinnamon Pollard & Sarah Alexander
Mark Jones:
Welcome to the show, both of you.
Cinnamon Pollard:
Hi, Mark.
Sarah Alexander:
Hello, Mark. Thanks for having us.
Mark Jones:
Can I just say how great it is to have two of you from Beyond Blue on the show? We have a panel just to keep things interesting on the podcast. So, thanks for joining us. Give me the elevator pitch for Beyond Blue.
Cinnamon Pollard:
So, Beyond Blue has been providing support and services to people in Australia for over 20 years. We had our 20th anniversary last year. We are Australia's most well-known and most visited mental health organisation. And we're focused on supporting people who were affected by anxiety, depression, and suicide, and that has evolved over the 20 years - and we don't ever take that position for granted. Even an organisation that is as well known as Beyond Blue is not impervious to disruption, and given how rapidly things are changing, it's really important for us to not rest on our laurels and to continue to innovate and stay relevant.
Mark Jones:
And what's interesting from, if you like, a sector perspective, a social sector perspective, is that there are many, many organisations in the space, in the mental health and wellbeing. And one of the things that you don't suffer from is lack of brand awareness. As you say, the organisation was launched by the former Premier of Victoria, Jeff Kennett. Your Chair, as we speak, is Julia Gillard. In any article that we see in the media, you're one of the organisations listed as top of mind for going to for support. So, what is the challenge?
Cinnamon Pollard:
We've been running a brand tracking survey for the last few years. And as you mentioned, brand awareness is extremely high. Brand trust is also really high. The challenge that we have is that people are still unsure about exactly what Beyond Blue does, and who we do it for. So, people know that we provide mental health support. Some people think that it's a men's mental health organisation. Other people only know us for our phone support service, but Beyond Blue offers a really diverse range of products and services across the whole mental health continuum. And so, our biggest challenge is first of all, helping to refine what our key point of difference is. And then as we move forward, where are we really going to focus our efforts as we start to transform all of our products and services?
Mark Jones:
Okay. So, it's really thinking about the vision for, organisationally, how will we support our cause? How will we make sure that we're looking after people as best we can and that people know how to find the right services from us and all those sorts of complexities? Is that a fair summary?
Cinnamon Pollard:
Yes, it is. Yeah, and it's a huge challenge.
Cinnamon Pollard:
So, last year we launched a new strategy, which was called Beyond 2020 with the strategic outcomes of promoting mental health and wellbeing, being a trusted source of information, and working together to prevent suicide. And when Beyond Blue was first started, it had a focus on depression. And then over the years, we broadened our remit to include anxiety. And it's really only been in the last few years that we've been focused on suicide prevention. And so, given the expansion of the areas that we cover, that has, I think over time, not necessarily translated into people really understanding where we're focused. And so, we're developing a new brand strategy to align with our Beyond 2020 strategic outcomes to ensure that we are actually meeting the expectations of what people perceive we are, and then delivering on the experiences that they expect.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. And to some extent, you're keeping up with the community and what's going on. Sarah, I'd love to hear from you. One of your remits, as I understand, is the Not Alone podcast. Tell me about how you've thought about this journey in the context of the stories that you're telling.
Sarah Alexander:
With podcasts, they're already that natural fit for storytelling. You've got the spoken voice, the conversational tone, and that level of intimacy. And I think it's through that, that we have a vehicle of sharing these lived experiences and sharing these stories and opening up the discussions around mental health in general, and that then kind of having a flow on effect within our immediate Beyond Blue community, but then reaching broader beyond that. So, kind of then helping us with that identity crisis.
Mark Jones:
Look, and can I just say, I work with a lot of brands, not-for-profit charities, and also commercial, and governmental, and all sorts of stuff. And this identity crisis thing you've just picked up on is pretty common and one of the reasons why is that the world keeps changing so quickly. What we thought we knew about ourselves gets disrupted by what's going on. And I think the reason why I wanted to ask about the show in this storytelling narrative is that it does fit in with this broader context of brands not just talking to target audiences, but actively listening and responding . That idea of intimacy. So, how do you bridge that brand strategy? And that, if you like, strategic thinking about how we're bringing our our advocates closer to us as a team, and how are you doing that through the podcast in particular? What's that feel like for you?
Sarah Alexander:
The first part about the podcast is that the stories that we use for each episode actually come from our community. So, it's not a talking head or not just someone from Beyond Blue. These are all members of the Beyond Blue community. So, we have a speakers team at Beyond Blue, which is over 300 people and they speak at workplaces, at sporting clubs, at schools, and share their mental health experiences. So, this is now an avenue for them to essentially reach more people across Australia. The whole idea of it is taking these mental health stories and helping the individual with their mental health journey or story because we've all got our own unique stories to tell, but at the end of the day, no matter what each of us are going through, there is 100% guarantee that there's been someone else out there that's had a similar experience.
Mark Jones:
So, clearly, you're not short of speakers and guests either with that sort of a team. Cinnamon, what's been the experience like for you? I mean, we're picking on the podcast here is one of the many things that you do, but storytelling, as I understand, is really central to the way that you think about marketing. For other CMOs and marketing comms leaders, storytelling is often seen as a tactical expression of our identity as opposed to becoming much more fundamentally connected with who we are.
Cinnamon Pollard:
Absolutely. So, the way in which I look at it is that we have built storytelling into every level of our organisation. And so, it informs absolutely everything that we do. So, I was brought on 12 months ago to establish the Insights & Innovation Centre of Excellence, which houses our brand and marketing team. But we've wrapped around that team, a community experience team who are human-centred design specialists, who work with our engaged communities to go into their houses or to go to their workplaces or to meet them in community centres and to really get to know them deeply, to get them to feel comfortable and empowered to tell their stories and then we use those insights and those stories. And then if people feel comfortable to come to the table with us, we're actually co-designing our strategies, our campaigns, and our products and services with people with lived experience. And so, it's so much more than just a tactical outlet or vehicle. They are embedded in every step of the process.
Mark Jones:
Storytelling, as you know, is my favourite thing. I've written a book on it. I speak about it. I lead workshops on it. Without any notice, I want to ask you this question. What do you think is the heartbeat of storytelling?
Cinnamon Pollard:
So, empathy, trust and safety are the conditions. I'll give you a really good example. For our World Suicide Prevention Day campaign last year, because we were in lockdown, we weren't able to send a production team over to people's houses to film their stories. And the team came up with this really beautiful narrative, which flipped the story on its head. So, every year, World Suicide Prevention Day, people quote the statistic that eight people a day die in Australia. What we decided to do was to tell the stories of eight people who didn't die by suicide. And because we weren't able to send the production companies over to their houses, they filmed the stories themselves on their phones and sent us the footage. And because they did it in the comfort of their own home and they felt safe, it was so real, and it was so raw, and it was so powerful, and so emotive that we ended up having these stories that I believe were so much more effective and powerful because they weren't surrounded by a team of people. They were able to tell it in the comfort of their own home.
Cinnamon Pollard:
And what it made us realise is that meeting people where they're at in their own environments, and giving people the time - I think a lot of the work that we do, it's very time boxed and we've got deadlines to meet, but one of the things that I've learnt in working with people from diverse backgrounds with diverse experiences and lived experience, is if you want to get the essence of the story, you've got to give it the amount of time that it needs to be told.
Mark Jones:
And so, there's a bit of an existential struggle isn't there to make it work for us when sometimes it needs that unhurried, unforced rhythm of someone with a smartphone just bearing it all and giving it the time and space it deserves. And I think that's firstly a profound insight that you're sharing. And secondly, I think it's massively challenging in the hurried marketing universe, right?
Cinnamon Pollard:
It is.
Mark Jones:
How do you do that? How do you cope with the deadlines and also the requirement for space?
Sarah Alexander:
Yeah, and that's the thing. It's so hard to get that data around the storytelling element of it because it is something that is so personal and it needs that time and space and the trust, and what Cinnamon spoke about the safety of that environment too. So, it's a safe environment. Vulnerability is there, but there's also the trust between all parties involved. Yeah. Probably one of our biggest challenge for the podcast is that time aspect of it. The time to do justice to these stories because at the end of the day, we're being trusted with these stories and we're simply a vehicle. All kudos to the speakers for trusting us.
Mark Jones:
I have a deep sort of empathy for the spectrum of being healthy and having ill health in this space.
Mark Jones:
One of the interesting things about this journey is that mental health is sometimes an involuntary shove into being vulnerable, and it's inescapable - and part of the trauma can be associated with that. We see a lot of stuff going on in social media with people posting really quite raw emotional forms of storytelling and self-disclosure, right? And you see it from time to time on social media, but in truth, vulnerability requires a lot of courage to speak about it and to open up in-person with somebody, right? As opposed to a distant shove it out on social media.
Mark Jones:
And I think there's probably something in that that's worth unpacking from your perspective because really you're, as an organisation, walking with people through new areas, if you like, new valleys of darkness. So, how you guide people through that space is, I think, from a professional perspective, quite extraordinary to have the capacity to listen and to understand. How do you interpret that dynamic, which is really fundamental to the journey of the people you're supporting? How do you incorporate it into story? How do you incorporate it into marketing? How do you incorporate it into strategy? It just feels to me like this enormous thing to get your head around.
Cinnamon Pollard:
It is our number one challenge. And it is the centrepiece of our transformation that we're undertaking at the moment. So, recently, the Productivity Commission into Mental Health and the Royal Commission into the Victorian Mental Health System identified what we already knew, but quantified how fragmented the mental health system is in Australia, and how difficult it is for people who are struggling, who depending on knowing where they are on that mental health continuum are not able to navigate their way through the system.
Cinnamon Pollard:
And Beyond Blue as a leading organisation, and a leading brand, has a huge responsibility to ensure that when people engage with us, that first of all, we make it really easy for them to get the help that they need, the right help at the right time. And then if the services that they require are not offered by us, partnering with other organisations to ensure that we can give a warm transfer across to other services so that it is really seamless and effortless for them. The last thing they need is to not be given the right advice and then be back to the drawing board trying to work out where they should start. We're the place that you start when you start to struggle with your mental health
Cinnamon Pollard:
We're also diversifying our reach. So, working with diverse communities to better understand why people aren't engaging with us and how we can better meet their needs or through partnerships with other organisations, how we can connect them with other services. And so, that's what underpins everything that we're doing at the moment. We've got a vision. It's called the Big Blue Door.
Cinnamon Pollard:
And it's about ensuring that we deliver accessible, safe, connected mental health services for everybody who engages with us. And it's about the connective tissue between all of our products and services. And so, connecting up our own ecosystem so that we can refer people easily between our own services. Through research that we've done recently, the community have told us that they want us to know them, to empower them, and to champion change. So, really that's their very strong principles to help guide us through everything that we do now.
Mark Jones:
That's really quite powerful. And there's a balance actually that many not-for-profit organisations face, which is the messaging and the tone and the language we use is enormously important as an empathy builder, as a connection builder. And that idea that you're touching on there around just how we can connect with people at their point of need without being condescending, but honouring their story and creating a pathway.
Mark Jones:
And I think there's maybe the typical pathway and then the atypical pathway. So, how you guide people through a process, and as you say, hand off. Then there's education as a another pillar, I imagine. Probably there's other pillars that you've got -
Cinnamon Pollard:
Research and knowledge translation, and innovation and incubation.
Mark Jones:
So, how do you build your priorities as a team around that? And what's the storytelling and the podcast intersection, right? So, where do you push and pull? What's the priority?
Cinnamon Pollard:
Yes. So, you've touched on another challenge for us as an organisation because, as you can imagine, the demand is greater than our capacity to support.
Mark Jones:
It's everybody's problem.
Cinnamon Pollard:
Yeah. And we have a diverse range of products across the whole mental health continuum, and there isn't anything that a single person in our organisation isn't doing that is meaningful and impactful. And so, everything feels urgent and important. And so, we're in the process of developing a prioritisation framework that looks at a whole lot of criteria. How does it align to our strategic objectives? How does it align to our Big Blue Door vision and the outcomes that we're trying to achieve? Have we heard from the community that this is a huge need at the moment?
Cinnamon Pollard:
We've stood up a data and insights function within the Centre of Excellence. And so, we're now so much better able to visualise who's using our services, what they're engaging with us for, how long they stay engaged for. We've got a much better understanding around our demographics, where people are coming from. So, all of those things are helping us to inform our decision making and then obviously global pandemics, bush fires. There are crises and events that occur that are completely outside of our control, which when they do occur, need to become our priority.
Mark Jones:
Sarah, do you use the podcast to reflect your organisation's journey, or is there also an element by which you're listening and learning from the interviews and the audience and almost like reality checking like staying in touch with the zeitgeists?
Sarah Alexander:
Yeah. Totally. And I think it was one of those things. Initially, we started with that kind of organisational approach, but especially for the first season and onto the second season too, a lot of the topics for the episodes actually came from the Beyond Blue online forums. So, we have forums hosted through our website where people can post and chat anonymously, and we actually took those trending topics from the community. What they were talking about? What was their frame of mind? What were their worries, their anxieties? And they then inform the episodes. -
Sarah Alexander:
And then through that process, again, you can step in to record an episode with these ideas of how this journey, even though we've already heard this story previously, and you walk out and you're checking yourself because you're like, "Well, that challenged so many ideas that I had around a symptom or a condition or someone's journey." So, it's a bit of both, but I feel like the latter kind of ends up taking a bit more space.
Mark Jones:
I think you're quite right. Maybe you've got to catch yourself from time to time. By the way, just for a bit of fun, I call that the "scratch where people are itchy" strategy.
Sarah Alexander:
I love it.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. It's possibly too simplistic, but I like it and I think that's a really important lesson. The better you understand your target audience, and the closer you can get to their felt needs and aspirations, the more successful you will be. And so, the other exciting thing about this, which I wanted to kind of reflect, and maybe we can segue neatly into the pandemic and what's going on in the community, is that through stories and this dynamic two way conversation that you're actively fostering. This is brand storytelling. So, when I talk about and articulate the idea of brand storytelling at its core, aside from the emotive vulnerability aspect that you have both referenced, it is the idea of being a publisher. We have a responsibility to articulate a positive, clear message mission and vision for the world, but we start to think a little bit more like a traditional publisher in the sense of, what will best serve my diverse set of stakeholders? How can we bring our best selves into that conversation? What will be the stories that will work? What won't work?
Mark Jones:
I mean, a lot of these are very tried and true, very old ideas in media, but actually bringing that to the core of an organisational strategy to me is actually a really amazing definition of what I'd say is true brand storytelling. How big of an idea is this within the organisation when you start talking about the C-suite and you've got incredible sponsors and advocates and all sorts of incredible people in the upper echelons of the organisation?
Cinnamon Pollard:
Yeah. So, I have a background in media. I started my career at the ABC back in 1995.
Cinnamon Pollard:
I also worked in the Fairfax digital media team and ran an editorial team. And so, I agree - it's a mindset shift that Beyond Blue is on the journey of. And that shift happened prior to my role being created and I've been brought on to execute that. So, what's really great is that from our chair-down, there is an acceptance and an understanding that we need to put lived experience and the community at the heart of absolutely everything that we do, and that we need to transform our culture and our ways of working to become more human centred, to be more agile and responsive to community needs, which means moving at a faster pace and organising ourselves in a different way in order to be able to do that.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. Okay. That's incredible. Well, with the pandemic in mind, and I've heard this reference multiple times over in the media, the incidents of all sorts of unfortunate mental health related problems in the community continues to escalate. . So, how are you coping with what I imagine would be a bit of a resource in crisis in the sense of the scope of the problem that we're facing is kind of itself is out of control, right?
Cinnamon Pollard:
Yeah.
Mark Jones:
How are you dealing with it from that support delivery capacity perspective?
Cinnamon Pollard:
It's been really hard, to be honest, because on top of all of that, we're working remotely. The majority of our team are in Victoria. And for those of us who live alone, there's loneliness. I started my role remotely and I didn't get to meet my team for almost a year. So, we as a team have had our own challenges and it's been really difficult. And then on top of that, supporting the community through the worst mental health crisis that I think that the country has experienced at least in the lifetime of Beyond Blue.
Cinnamon Pollard:
And so, we've really had to work very closely with our service delivery partners to scale up. We've had to get much closer to the community and we've had to form partnerships with organisations that we haven't previously formed partnerships with, which has been really fantastic. So, partnering with local community groups, multicultural organisations, refugee organisations, to be able to get our messaging out, to reach people who we haven't traditionally ever reached before. And we've been really fortunate with the Coronavirus Mental Wellbeing Support Service funding that we've been given. Some of that has been earmarked to specifically target and reach those very hard to reach audiences.
Cinnamon Pollard:
And so, the best and only way to do that is through partnerships with community leaders and community organisations who have on the ground networks. And distributing our content through those networks, but not even having to be the generator of that content. Taking the content that's already being produced by them and leveraging our reach and our channels and our network to be able to target and amplify that content for them.
Mark Jones:
So, in other words, how can we scale?
Cinnamon Pollard:
Yes.
Mark Jones:
When you say partnering... And this is wildly simplistic, but in the media world, if we get too busy, we bring on contractors or freelancers, right? "Give me a bigger freelance budget, then we start plugging them in and write more stories." Right.
Cinnamon Pollard:
Yeah.
Mark Jones:
Just for a bit of light relief, but I think that's part of what you're going through, right?
Cinnamon Pollard:
That's right.
Mark Jones:
And so, how do we scale our message? Is there a risk though that your message gets a bit diluted through that? I mean, how sensitive are you to messaging control if I can term it in that phrase?
Cinnamon Pollard:
Well, very. We have a clinical governance process that our content goes through to ensure that it's relevant, accurate, fit for purpose, and appropriate, and safe. And as I mentioned earlier, we've started to really look at our usage data and the insights that we're gathering through that data and community co-design projects to really help inform our content strategy. Now, for example, increasingly the youth market is impacted by the effects of COVID and lockdown. And so, through our partnership with Reach Out, we have developed a series of videos that we co-produced with them and they tested through their use network to ensure that they were relevant for our youth market.
Cinnamon Pollard:
And we've worked with them so that they can distribute that content through their own network because what we found is that because they are youth specialist, and they've got engaged youth audiences, that they get a much better response to the content when it goes out through their channels versus ours.
Cinnamon Pollard:
And so, to maximise impact, we don't need to produce the content ourselves. We don't need to spend the marketing dollars ourselves. We want to channel our efforts and our energies to wherever it's going to have the greatest impact. And that we're calling that partnerships.
Mark Jones:
I wanted to kind of start to wrap up with an obvious discussion topic, which is impact. We have seen a real appetite for - once you get your identity right, people then looked beyond not just what are the outputs and the outcomes that we see from a short to medium term perspective, but from the long-term, what's the long lasting, sustainable, positive change we anticipate and envision will take place in the community or an individual life? And so, how do you measure that? How do you build in this long-term strategic thinking into the daily tactical thinking because I think we're now getting into a season in marketing communications where if you are asking for long-term support from people, where you're inviting them to partner with you over the long-term, there are lots of pressure points that demand something more than, "Look at this annual report showing lots of activities we did in the year." Now it's like, how many lives were positively impacted over the long-term? And here's the stats to prove it, for example. How are you thinking about that?
Cinnamon Pollard:
Yeah. So, we're very fortunate to have an in-house research and evaluation team at Beyond Blue, and they have been working for the last couple of years on developing a performance framework, which takes our strategic objectives and our roles and then looks at what are the success metrics? How do we know when we've achieved those roles and we've achieved those strategic objectives? Then we add in our experience principles. So, this is our promise to the community that when you engage with us, this is what your experience is going to be like. And then we cascade that down to, “How are we going to measure that?” But we're looking at things like engagement. At the end of calls, we do surveys. So, we use a variety of tools.
Cinnamon Pollard:
We've also partnered with academic institutions and research organisations to run longitudinal studies. For example, we launched a new service called New Access a few years ago, and we've been running a study for the last few years and looking at how cognitive behavioural therapy with a more extended - six coaching sessions - the difference that that makes. And comparing that with, say, the peer to peer support that's provided through our forums versus a single episode interaction by our support service. And then looking at all of our channels, what are the most effective for different people and for their different needs so that we can get better at channelling people to the right service at the right time for the right intervention.
Cinnamon Pollard:
So, our performance framework is a piece of work that's been established and is now being implemented across the organisation. And it's a really hard thing to do. So, we're picking a few things and we're piloting them. We're combining that with more real time feedback mechanisms like social listening, just looking at our stats on a day to day basis for people who are using our services and then combining that with research that we do out in the community to create a more holistic picture. Our ultimate goal is that all Australians experience their best possible mental health. And so, anything that we can do to help shift the needle on that is a great thing, and being able to demonstrate that is really important.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. And can I just say how much I appreciate the way that you articulated that and explained it because while it's infinitely complex, the layers of activity that you're talking about there and the way that it all connects is, I think, a really great lesson for people to take away in terms of thinking, "Well, what would that look like for us?" And I guess Sarah, in thinking about that impact story, I wonder how does it influence the stories and the questions that you ask of people? How do you bring that into the programme? How do you take that long-term perspective into interviews, right? So, I imagine it shifts you from the "what do you do now" conversation to "what's worked for people over the long-term"? What are the best practises and all that sort of stuff? I imagine that's a positive way to move forward.
Sarah Alexander:
Yeah, totally. As part of the episode structure itself, we have the interview with the speaker Marc Fennell, but then we have a section towards the end with our clinical lead, Dr. Grant Blashki. It's about five, 10 minutes section where we walk through what the episode has been about or the symptoms and the issues that have come up, but also actionable steps for the listeners. So, things that they can do, or if they are experiencing something similar, or if they know someone that's going through something similar, things that they can action and they feel confident and have the tools for, but you're right. It's so hard to gauge if that is making an impact or not, but I suppose we have to draw back on things like the lessons and the feedback that we get through our reviews and through our social media channels, where people are telling us, "Thank you for talking about postnatal depression because I thought it was just me that had this relationship with my child," or trauma, "Thank you. Is that what that was, that has been in my head for 20 years now?" So, yeah. It's kind of taking again, all those little things and then informing the next steps with that.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. Look, I think the experience you're explaining there and the dynamic of a podcast and the questions that you ask and the necessary listening that is required, I think is also a reflection of where I think we're heading with brand storytelling, which is again, reflecting that two-way dynamic - it's as much about the listening as it is about the telling or the speaking or the communicating.
Mark Jones:
And I think there's a lot of humility and vulnerability required to actually stop and make that sort of listening that you're describing really part of the core of your storytelling.
Mark Jones:
We are out of time. I could probably interview you guys for another two hours, but we've all got things to go off and do. So, thank you for the work that you guys do and I wish you all the best in the days, months, years ahead as you make all of this storytelling impact people's lives. So, again, thank you very much.
Cinnamon Pollard:
And thank you. Thank you for letting us share our story. It's been our pleasure.