How World Vision is regenerating for the future
On this episode of the CMO Show, Mark sits down with Louise Cummins, CMO at World Vision Australia. Louise shares how the historic not-for-profit is staying relevant and addressing modern challenges, and why impact storytelling will always sit at the heart of the organisation.
In the world purpose-led organisations, World Vision is truly a household name.
Many of us grew up sponsoring a child or participating in the 40 Hour Famine, and even if we didn’t, it’s hard to overlook the important work the organisation does with children, families and communities to overcome poverty and injustice.
So how does a charity that’s been around since 1950, one with a clearly defined mission and enormous scale, evolve to stay relevant to new generations and address modern challenges?
Louise Cummins, CMO at World Vision Australia, returned to the organisation in 2022 with exactly that question in mind.
“There's some beauty in having lots of opportunities and possibilities, but I think one of the challenges is keeping that really good radical focus,” Louise said.
“I recently heard somebody use the expression, ‘drinking from the fire hose’ and I giggled because marketers have a tendency to try and ‘drink from the fire hose’ versus ‘operating in a scaled way for success.’”
On this episode of the CMO Show, Louise shares what brought her back to World Vision, what radical focus looks like for her and her team, and why impact storytelling will always sit at the heart of the organisation.
“I've always been connected and committed to the power of the story, but especially in World Vision, that connectedness of sharing the stories is just so critical,” says Louise.
“I'm so lucky I've got such a great team, both locally and internationally, that help with unlocking that.”
Enjoy the conversation!
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Credits
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The CMO Show production team
Producer – Rian Newman
Audio Engineers – Ed Cheng & Daniel Marr
Got an idea for an upcoming episode or want to be a guest on The CMO Show? We’d love to hear from you: cmoshow@filteredmedia.com.au
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Transcript
Participants:
Host: Mark Jones
Guest: Louise Cummins
When your organisation has been around for a while, what does it take to stay relevant? What do people expect you to keep doing? And if you're faced with an opportunity for change, is it worth taking the risk? These, of course, are not simple questions, but when we face opportunities to really think about things from a different perspective, what are we going to do?
Sometimes we've really got to take that step back and think about our priorities. Is it really time for a big change or perhaps just a tweak?
Hello there, how you doing? Mark Jones here, great to have you with us and I am excited about this episode of the CMO Show. My guest is Louise Cummins. She is CMO at World Vision. She is pretty well known in marketing circles I got to say, she is on the board of the Australian Marketing Institute and she's known by many of us in the industry. But what's interesting to me is that she is somebody from a career perspective that really understands ends where her heart lies. And she is now just six months back at World Vision. And I do mean back because earlier in her career, she spent some time at World Vision and had an opportunity to travel overseas, and it really left a lasting impression on her.
So now that she's in her new role, I wanted to sit down with her and talk about her agenda. What's it like being back at World Vision? What are your plans for the future? All the good stuff. So dig in and enjoy my conversation with Louise Cummins.
Welcome back to the CMO Show. My guest today is Louise Cummins, who is the CMO at World Vision. Thank you for joining us.
Louise Cummins
Oh, thank you for having me. It's exciting.
Mark Jones
It is exciting. We spoke some years ago, I'm not going to put any sort of actual timeframes on that, but this is your second time on the CMO Show. It is wonderful to have you back. It's also your second stint at World Vision.
Louise Cummins
Yes.
Mark Jones
Now tell me about that.
Louise Cummins
So in around 2006, I decided that I actually wanted a bit of a career change, and so I picked up my bags and moved to Cambodia, and worked for World Vision, and it was a division called Vision Fund, which actually looks after microfinance.
So it was absolutely incredible. We actually had 35,000 entrepreneurs when I was there, micro-entrepreneurs. Do you know about microfinance? Yes, it's fantastic, and positively impacting 200,000 children. The beautiful thing about it is also it really helped with child trafficking reduction, and it's a much longer tale of that sort of conversation, but it was really, really fantastic work.
We then became the Centre of Excellence within the World Vision Partnership, so I was really fortunate to then go to Romania and Thailand and lecture on community banking for the poor, and doing some work for the US team, and so it was really fantastic, and although I had a really interesting pivotal moment where I could either continue on that journey, and I was offered a role to continue on that journey, I realised I really wanted to come home and actually be with my family.
So yeah, it was a fantastic opportunity. So I came back to corporate life for 15 years, and loved it. Still doing not-for-profit work, more in the board governance space and some volunteer work, but then in last year I just had this calling of, I wanted to do something a bit new, and I got a head hunted for this role. So it feels like it's been a real journey home. So yes, started up with World Vision again.
Mark Jones
Many people through the pandemic, and even I think before that, have had these wistful ideas about the career experience you've just described, but, "I really want to do something meaningful and also apply my skills."
What was that experience like for you? What did it feel like to be able to combine those two areas and interests? And it quite obviously has had a lasting impact, but can you just unpack the lived experience aspect of it?
Louise Cummins
Yeah, look, I think a lot of people say that, and I think it's really quite hard to execute on.
Mark Jones
What do you mean by that?
Louise Cummins
Well, picking up your whole life and moving to a developing country is full on, right?
Mark Jones
Particularly Cambodia.
Louise Cummins
Yeah, and I'd never been to Cambodia, and doing it on my own, and all the rest of it.
I feel like sometimes people feel like they need to feed their spirit more, but you don't need to do things as radical. You don't need to necessarily completely transform your life to actually feed your soul or your passion projects more. So that's one thing that, especially when I've been mentoring people, is how do you incorporate more just doing some volunteer work, getting on a not-for-profit board? You don't have to actually uproot everything to do it. It was just in my case, I moved to Cambodia, but in this case with World Vision, it's just lovely, because it actually couples everything that I'm about. So I'm bringing all my corporate experience, all my passion and bringing it all together, so I'm very fortunate.
Mark Jones
You are, and quite clearly it was the right thing to do for you, particularly because of your ability to understand it all, and maybe it's your makeup, your ability to move through life and understand life's different challenges, is that right?
Louise Cummins
Yeah, well I think marketing's been fantastic for that, right?
Mark Jones
Yeah.
Louise Cummins
Is that I love ... especially the next generation coming through ... when I first started my career, it was like, "Okay, you are in the stationery industry or the FMCG or the IT industry." Now it's all changed. People are actually changing industries, and I feel so fortunate that I've been able to actually change industries so much, and that's I think really kept me in the game for so long and be energised. So I've been in the medical products, financial products, working for Channel Seven, MGM Studios, the Fuji Film. I've loved it. I've loved having that diversity and travelling the world.
I've been so lucky. I've basically travelled the globe for marketing and met these amazing people, from meeting these most amazing women that are starting up their own businesses in Cambodia, that are seeing life that it could be a better way of life, to working with influencers like Kim Kardashian, across the full remit of different people that I've met.
Mark Jones
Fantastic.
Louise Cummins
It's been amazing, amazing journey. Highly recommend anybody out there that's listening to this to get into marketing.
Mark Jones
So tip number one, do something else outside of your comfort zone.
Louise Cummins
Abs ... oh yeah, that's where the beauty happens. It's hard though. As you get older, it's harder to push yourself out of your comfort zone.
Mark Jones
It actually just struck me, that's really quite an important insight, because in marketing we often talk about ...Learn from a different case study and apply it to your sector. But if I go back a few, couple of decades, it really was aligned much more vertically in your career. You were in the tech sector, you were in the charity sector, and that was your career path, and you're quite right. We've kind of blown that all apart, haven't we?
Louise Cummins
Absolutely, I think you can definitely get some subject matter experts in a particular industry, and that brings a lot to the table, but you can't underestimate what you bring from other industries to the table at the same time.
Mark Jones
Which brings us back to World Vision. Six months in ... because I said hello to you at the beginning of your stint ... you were like, "Give me some time, give me some time." What's it been like? Describe the experience.
Louise Cummins
Oh, I'm just so energised by the team. So I think I've just been blown away by the calibre of my team, which has been amazing. Really love the CEO's vision of where he wants to take the business as well, so that's been incredibly exciting.
Probably the most surprised when I was brought into the role, is World Vision's focus on climate, which wasn't really a focus when I was in Cambodia. So this is kind of a new stream, a new pillar of focus for us-
Mark Jones
Yeah, amazing.
Louise Cummins
... and so I found that really fantastic.
Mark Jones
We should actually just at that point say, most people understand it for the work with children, right?
Louise Cummins
Yes.
Mark Jones
And alleviating poverty and incredible work over many, many years, right? And so you've got that legacy, you've got this new ... what else are you doing?
Louise Cummins
the three primary areas for World Vision are actually climate, children, and Australian First Nations. So we're still so focused on all our work with child sponsorship, and just the amazing impact it has in transforming lives, and I can say that because I've seen it first-hand. I really truly believe in that transformation.
We've got a fantastic group of First Nation people, that are driving some really amazing programmes, especially in the youth space and the climate initiative, and our climate initiative is around FMNR, which is Farmer-Managed Managed Natural Regeneration programme.
Mark Jones
That's interesting.
Louise Cummins
So I kind of call it the underground forest movement. So yes, I've been really excited to be involved in that, but that's probably from an operational and product perspective.
What I'm really excited about from a marketing perspective is, World Vision is ubiquitous in the Australian culture. Most of us have done the 40 Hour Famine, or we've contributed in times of the tsunami or more recently Ukraine. So we have been built by Australians, and we're much-loved organisation, but what does the next era look like for us? And how do we actually keep being relevant to the younger generation and to the Gen Zs, and that's where I think some really exciting areas can happen for us. And also, what does the next stage of the digital evolution look like, and how do I bridge the plan from the field to the supporter much more, so how do I build that deeper connection between those two parties through digital means, and obviously then, where does Web 3.0 sit into that?
And so there's a huge amount of exciting things that are on the horizon for me, including brand reinvention. How does the next look 40 Hour Famine look? So yeah, it's exciting.
Mark Jones
So it sounds like in six months, you've really got your head around the possibilities.
Louise Cummins
I'm very fortunate, because actually there's some beauty in having lots of opportunities and possibilities, but I think one of the challenges is, how do you keep that really good radical focus? So you know where you're actually going to, and our CEO's fantastic at actually really driving that radical focus.
Mark Jones
And these are the things that I see at play. You've got the three focus areas, you've got incredible scale-
Louise Cummins
Yes.
Mark Jones
... and then you've got, how do we work with this concept of relevance? And I think that's an interesting one, because of the generational changes.
Louise Cummins
Absolutely.
Mark Jones
You have the millennials, if I can say that in very broad general terms, who on the large part, are in management roles, and so I think we forget about that, in the sense of the way that organisations are behaving, the people who are controlling large budgets, and influential in the way that we think about things. I think that's an interesting connection point to this underground forest movement and the climate change, for example.
So connect those dots for us, how you approach that from a marketing strategy point of view? You've got relevance, you've got focus, you've got scale. How do you get your head around all of that, from a strategy point of view. What's the mindset that you're bringing to your work?
Louise Cummins
So in terms of that segmentation or that life stage journey, we look at it almost from a donor lake perspective, that's kind of our nice way of saying-
Mark Jones
Donor lake?
Louise Cummins
Yeah, so it's basically at what point do you come into the fold?
Mark Jones
Yeah.
Louise Cummins
And then, how do you actually engage with us throughout that journey? So I think it's about taking much more of a holistic view of how do we actually be relevant for each life stage. So that's, I suppose, that side of things.
Then there's obviously, there's strategy around the brand relevance across all of those different areas. The other piece which you mentioned, which was a number of different streams, one of the biggest things I had to do was actually step back and actually go, "Okay, what is our three year plan," and actually getting really radical focus, so we actually have a plan on a page.
So we use the Gazelle Growth Tools, which I know that a lot of big companies actually use, but it's fantastic to bring everybody together, to actually have a plan on a page.
Because there's a quick thread I wanted to pull out from what you've said as well is, I love the fact that we have such scale. That is probably one of the most exciting things about World Vision is, we are operating in over a hundred countries, we have over 37,000 staff. We have out on the field representation, we hire more Kenyans than any other NGO in Kenya. We are actually there on the ground, so the most beautiful part about this is the impact that we can have from Australia directly to the field as a result of our size, is just so inspiring.
Mark Jones
I think that scale is probably one of the biggest issues for any marketer, and it doesn't matter in what sector, and we always want to-
Louise Cummins
That's true.
Mark Jones
... yeah, we always want to do more-
Louise Cummins
Yes.
Mark Jones
... than the scope or-
Louise Cummins
Yes.
Mark Jones
... the budget allows, right?
Louise Cummins
Yes.
Mark Jones
Presumably you've still got constraints. What are they?
Louise Cummins
Oh there's always ... there's so many things that we want to do, but we have to put it into bite size pieces. So I'm a really big advocate of, "So what's our three year plan? Let's get all the vision, all the ideas out on the table, and then how do we scale that?"
And I heard recently, somebody say, "drinking from the fire hose," and I kept giggling, because I think there's a tendency as marketers of let's try and drink from the fire hose versus how do we actually do it in scaled way for success? Because we just can't do everything all at the same time, and you just burn out everybody, and you're not testing and evolving and learning as well. So that's probably the biggest constraint, just because we can't do everything at once.
Mark Jones
Tell us then, about how you've divided up your budget and your resources, and I guess within that context, I'm interested about leadership, because I imagine you're going to need people who are really good at owning components of that.
Louise Cummins
Absolutely. Absolutely, and that's an interesting thing about marketing, is how specialised marketing has become. So when I started it was much more generalised, whereas now, the next generation's coming through and it's very specialised. There's very specialised roles. So my remit is around the digital optimization, so that's the website portals, apps, and then there's the data ecosystem, the product experience area we've got the internal brand agency, we've got all our campaign management, and then just generalised marketing operations. So it's kind of split up into those remits, and ... yeah, no, that's how we split the focus area, and make sure we get things done.
In terms of budgets, I'm very much a big believer in making sure we are very, very aware of what has been entrusted to us by our donors, and that's also institutional donors from the government, to private funding, to consumers, and we're actually very, very proud of how low our administration fees are. So we are very proud of the work that we do there. So in terms of budget, we're always making sure what's the return on investment? How do we make sure that we're maximising everything that we are doing? So that adds a bit of an interesting nuance-
Mark Jones
It does.
Louise Cummins
... because I'm just very conscious of every single cent we spend is actually for the right reasons.
Mark Jones
For marketers who are not in the charity and not-for-profit sector, they may not appreciate just how important what you've just said is, because there's actually a legacy idea in the community it even used to be as low as 10% and possibly bit higher ... people would say, "I don't want to give to a charity that's spending more than 10% of their donor funds on administration."
Talk us through why that's so important.
Louise Cummins
Well, I think that-
Mark Jones
Which, by the way, for you, is 83% is going out the door.
Louise Cummins
83, yes, exactly.
Louise Cummins
So we're one of the highest in the not-for-profit sector in terms of our efficiency
Mark Jones
Right, and at your scale, that's extraordinary, I would've thought.
Louise Cummins
Yes, and it's important to note that, just generally, you need staff to actually go out even to the field. So in my Vision Fund experiences of microfinance, we need people to go out and actually administer the micro-loans, to train the local people, to ... there's a whole ecosystem of support structures around that. We need cars to actually go to the field.
There's so many different levels of administration that is required to actually keep lights on, so it's not like you're going to fund 35,000 people completely free of charge. There has to be money associated, but we're very, very lucky, especially because of our government support as well.
Mark Jones
Okay. Yeah, that's important. You mentioned your CEO, so the new CEO, Daniel Wordsworth, and I'm interested, what's the experience like working with him, and how important is it from a leadership point of view, to have the connection that you've described?
Louise Cummins
I find him such a fascinating character, in that he is so clear with his vision, which is fantastic. So there's no wish washy, he's very clear about what he wants. I think what I really like about him is, he's got this incredible depth of field experience, but coupled with an amazing marketer. So even though he hasn't necessarily had a traditional marketing career, he's the one that's actually going out to our teams and talking about the importance of brand. He is living, breathing what we are all about, and he has a hundred percent commitment to where World Vision is going, which is amazing, and he also empowers people below him to actually realise that vision.
Mark Jones
That is really interesting to hear. I think from a leadership point of view, one of the issues that I've noticed many marketers struggle with, is feeling like you have to constantly educate C-suite executive, even your peers, in what it is you do. So it sounds like you got a free pass on that one?
Louise Cummins
Not a free pass. I think it's an interesting one, isn't it? Because, having now been on boards as well, I think sometimes ... this is going to potentially sound a little bit controversial ... but I think sometimes marketers, we need to reframe sometimes how we're speaking to the board or C-suite.
Mark Jones
In what way?
Louise Cummins
In that I think sometimes we don't tell enough of the story. So let's use brand versus activational, short term investment. So obviously the short term conversion, it's much easier to measure. In governance, you always love good measurement. Brand, you can still measure, but it's just got different kind of attribution modelling, and different measurement structure.
Mark Jones
And longer term.
Louise Cummins
It's a longer term, right? I've seen some marketers not really being able to articulate that enough. We get a little bit ... so it's about how do you actually craft the right narrative for the different audiences? So if you are talking to a board that has got lawyers and accountants, how do you actually make sure that you are giving enough data and proof points, and actually teaching or educating that group of people about latest trends and the rationale.
I'm not saying ... there's a huge amount of marketers that are really good at that, but I think there is a tendency of marketers to go in and sell more the campaign and the brand stuff, which is great, but not leaning enough into that measurement framework.
Mark Jones
Yes, we get excited about the thing that we're doing, because it's-
Louise Cummins
Exactly.
Mark Jones
... this creative thing, "It's so amazing, this platform, let me tell you all about it."
Louise Cummins
Exactly.
Mark Jones
And you're missing the point from their point of view.
Louise Cummins
Yeah, so I just wanted to say that's an interesting nuance is, whilst we've been given really amazing runway to actually grow, there still has to be that accountability of where that measurement's coming from. And it's as much about me, than Daniel, is that that's that real partnership of how do we make sure that whatever we are doing is working.
Mark Jones
Yeah, and you do have many, many stakeholders to consider.
Louise Cummins
Absolutely.
Mark Jones
And you mentioned government, there's the publics-
Louise Cummins
Exactly.
Mark Jones
... so on and so on.
Louise Cummins
DFAT has their own reporting structure. Our private funding have their own structure, the reporting structure corporates do, and then we are very committed to our donor promise, especially with the consumers.
I'm a child sponsor personally. I've been a child sponsor for many years. That's how ... absolutely walk the walk, and very committed to, and know that my funds are being used in the right place.
But we also make sure that we're reporting back to the consumer, so everything we are doing is that reporting back, so there's green light or runway, but it's also about how do we make sure we're doing the right thing.
Mark Jones
One of the things I'm taking away from that is, not just, and we always say speak their language, but actually provide the evidence, and maybe even the stories that bring it alive?
Louise Cummins
Oh, stories are so important, right? And that's what World Vision's done so well over the years. So I remember I was at a resource allocation conference years ago in Thailand, and I heard a quote and it's always resonated with me, which was, the death of one is a tragedy, the death of a thousand is a statistic, and it's because our brains can't really wrap ourselves around-
Mark Jones
It just becomes numbers.
Louise Cummins
Exactly. The famine in Africa at the moment is just awful, but it's so hard to get our head around it. It's just so big, and the extent is so big, but when you bring it back to that one person, it brings it to life. So that's one thing that I'm really ... I've always been connected and committed to the power of the story, but especially in World Vision, that connectedness of sharing the stories is just so critical, and I'm so lucky I've got such a great team, both locally and internationally, that help with unlocking that.
Mark Jones
Something I'm quite passionate about in the storytelling area, is what we're describing as impact storytelling-
Louise Cummins
Yes.
Mark Jones
... and by that I mean the use of evidence, but not just short-term facts and data points, and you talk about those conversion rates and whatever-
Louise Cummins
Yeah.
Mark Jones
... but actually evidence of change over a long period of time to drive your storytelling. How important is that for you?
Louise Cummins
Oh absolutely. Facts sell as well, so it's like that you have to have the story, but you have to have how that's actually changed someone, and the real statistics behind that, and the evidence behind that, that's what makes it real.
Mark Jones
Yeah. Something that blew my mind recently was Dylan Alcott put out a report about the NDIS.
Louise Cummins
Oh, he's fantastic.
Mark Jones
Yes, he is. But one of the stats, which actually really moved the interviewer on ABC, it was the Breakfast Show, and she talked about the number of children that had developed friendships over a four year period has really increased because of the NDIS.
Mark Jones
So it was more than 50% increase in friendships, as a byproduct of better NDIS funding, because you're more mobile, you're able to engage in community groups, and so on, and so for little children with disability-
Louise Cummins
Okay, interesting.
Mark Jones
Right? And it was actually a moving thing for the interviewer, and also Dylan was said, "I've got the hair standing up on the back of my neck as you talk about it," and for me that was a beautiful piece of evidence, in a different way to say, "In a four year period, the experience of children living with a disability has increased immeasurably in the context of relationships, which as we all know is extraordinarily important."
And so I'm drawing a bit of a connection here, but when you think about children's lives, kids in Africa, there's an interesting opportunity, I think, for marketers, to step back and think, "What's the big picture story here? What changes have we seen?"
Louise Cummins
Absolutely.
Mark Jones
Right? And I'm fascinated by some of those global stats, where we talk about the number of people who've come out of poverty in the last few decades.
Louise Cummins
Absolutely.
Mark Jones
Right? You know what I'm talking about? But then, how do we personalise that? But how do we tell the story of that big picture change? Because I just have a sense that's maybe what we're missing from, as marketers, in our stories, that's the-
Louise Cummins
Big picture change.
Mark Jones
Yeah, but that's also the heartbeat of these organisations is, that we want to see the sustained change over time.
Louise Cummins
Absolutely.
Mark Jones
It's not just, "Show me a sad child on a bus stop and I'll give you money." It feels-
Louise Cummins
And that's what we're really changing.
Mark Jones
It feels quite trite.
Louise Cummins
So we have an operating model where we actually go into a community for a set period of time, so it's called an area programme. So we actually look at all the community programme, and once we've completed that work, we actually call it project celebrations. So we close it off, and the donors actually get to experience the closing of the programme, all the fantastic initiatives, and I think to your point, that's really important. So it's not just about that one child, it's actually going, "How have we dovetailed? How do you actually-", and we actually send it to supporters that maybe haven't continued their sponsorship, because they've been really pivotal even in different moments in time.
So yeah, we are very committed to doing that, and I love seeing countries that are moving from more of a needing funds to actually raising funds, and there's a number of World Vision countries like that, that are now switching from needing money to fund their programmes, to actually being fundraisers, which is amazing.
Mark Jones
That's amazing. And I know you've only been at World Vision for six months, but do you know the sort of stories or impact on donors and funders from those moments you just described?
Louise Cummins
Yeah. Well actually I'm going to tell you one story, which I might not actually reveal the name, but she's in broadcasting, she's amazing. But she was talking about how she was one of three children, and they had a World Vision child, and it was on the fridge, and she was talking about the impact it had as she was growing up, because the whole family would sit and write to the child, they'd get the letters in return, they would have this whole experience of how he was part of the DNA of their family, which cemented their, I suppose, philosophy about giving, and thinking more than just the family unit and being good global citizens. And she actually ... I think this is fascinating ... about two years ago she found him on Facebook, so now she's got her family and all the rest of it, and she contacted him on Facebook living in India, and she said, "Do you know how much you meant to us?" And he said, "You can't imagine how much you meant to me as well."
Mark Jones
Oh that's so beautiful.
Louise Cummins
It's so beautiful, right? So it's not just a child to a family. It's actually amazing to then have that connection later on in life, so I thought that was really beautiful.
Mark Jones
My wife and I have actually sponsored a boy from his early ... maybe around eight to 10 in Uganda, right through to him leaving university.
Louise Cummins
Oh, fantastic.
Mark Jones
And when we got the notification that he'd finished university and he now had a job in Kampala, and I actually got emotional. It was like my child had graduated, and they said, "Well this is the end of your programme."
Louise Cummins
Of that journey, yeah.
Mark Jones
And I was like, "Oh no."
Louise Cummins
Yeah.
Mark Jones
So you've actually quite inspired me. I'm going to go look, to see if I can find him on Facebook. Such a great tip.
So when you think about where to from here, and you've touched on a couple of things in terms of thinking again about the World Vision brand, you've got opportunities to do incredible things with climate change, so many stories to tell. Just give us an insight into what's next, without giving away the farm, I'm sure, but how do you think about future planning, pacing yourself?
Louise Cummins
So one of the areas I'm really excited about is our farmer-managed natural regeneration programme, which I mentioned just before, but-
Mark Jones
You did, you did.
Louise Cummins
I call it the underground forest movement. So basically we've worked out that root systems, once trees have been taken out, removed, the actual root system stays intact, and we've found an embarrassing simple solution of actually how do we actually bring those root systems back to life?
It doesn't actually work on a podcast, but I could show you some video footage. It is amazing to see. You can see the work we are doing from space, and how desolate land is actually now becoming green and fertile through this programme.
So to Tony Rinaudo, if anybody wants to Google him, he is the most amazing, inspiring man, and he was the one that's really been spearheading this, and he's written a book, and he's travelling the world now talking about it. He'll be at COP, which is the big environmental conference.
So we are very, very excited about this whole initiative, and I think it's just a fantastic programme to be part of.
Mark Jones
let's close out with mentoring, and the heartbeat of our community. I'm fascinated, you've touched on mentoring and actually mentoring and enabling teams has been a big part of your career.
What do you love about that? What drives you, and how can you encourage other marketers, a listener, to do that for themselves? Because I have a sense that when you teach, when you share, when you encourage, it's kind of good for you too.
Louise Cummins
Oh, I think you get so much more in return, and I think that's the case with ... I know I'm going slightly back to the World Vision Day ... but I remember going to the field, and this beautiful old man walked up to me and he put his ... it's like he was staring into my soul, and he put his hands around my hands and said, "Thank you for helping," and I just realised he said it in Khmer, so I was all also excited that I actually knew what he was saying, because I'd been doing Khmer courses.
Mark Jones
Well done.
Louise Cummins
Thank you. But I remember at that moment going, "That's so beautiful," but I thought, "I'm getting so much more from this experience," and I think that goes to this whole mentoring is, as a mentor, you learn I think as much, if not more.
So I've mentored people throughout my career, but probably more recently, a couple of years ago, I did a coaching course, so I did it through the Growth Academy, and did Level One and Level Two, so that kind of gave me a bit more structure in terms of coaching. I know coaching and mentoring are quite different, but I think you do tend to go ... if you're being asked to be a mentor ... you do tend to sort cross that, go in between both.
Mark Jones
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Louise Cummins
And yeah, so I've done it.
Mark Jones
That's a good tip, just by the way, don't go into it blindly. Just think about it. How are you going to do? What process would you apply?
Louise Cummins
Absolutely.
Mark Jones
Set expectations, all those sorts of things, yeah.
Louise Cummins
And I had also done counselling previously as well. So to that point, I'm very clear about what's in my swim lane.
Mark Jones
Yeah.
Louise Cummins
So when I actually connect with somebody and they've asked to be me to be a mentor, I'm very clear about what does that look like for you? How many times do you want to meet? What do you want to achieve out of it? And really keep shaping those goal settings, and making sure that you're not traversing into other swim lanes.
And I learned that slightly the hard way, because I think when different people have asked me to be their mentor, I've been, "Sure," and then we've met a couple of times and then it's like, you don't really know what you meant to do after that. So I think there's some companies that do it very well, where there's really clear frameworks. So that would be one thing that I would really recommend for people.
Mark Jones
Just briefly for women, how important is that mentoring, and what have been some of the outcomes from that for you?
Louise Cummins
Yeah, I think as a woman, there's obviously some nuances, especially with juggling family, so that is actually good to have that connection point. Especially when you've got a young family, it's often really hard to navigate the balance between family and work commitments, and because ... to be honest with you, often you don't feel like you're doing either very well when you're balancing it, so it's actually good to have somebody to bounce that off.
Mark Jones
Yeah.
Louise Cummins
And the next generation of women are just so empowered, and it's so fantastic to see. But I'm also, as you know, a big believer in women supporting women, so I actually run a CMO women's networking dinner, which is fantastic. So we meet up every six months, with the top CMOs, female CMOs, in Sydney, and then it's actually quite a nice concept, because we get a few sponsors, but all the ticket sales go a female-based charity.
Mark Jones
Fabulous.
Louise Cummins
So we've supported Too Good, Dress for Success, and the next one's actually going to be a local domestic violence shelter. So yeah, we are very lucky.
Yes, it takes a bit of time, but I get as much if not more back from those sessions, because I've got a tribe that we can share those like-minded challenges.
Mark Jones
I think that's one of the things I'm taking away from our conversation is, the more you give, the more you receive.
Louise Cummins
Well, also I just want to say, I think it's also a beautiful metaphor, and my CEO says this as just a parting thought, which I think is really cool. He sees the underground forest also extending to hope and the power underneath. So so often at the moment, we're hearing so much bad stuff in the news and all the rest of it, but we've actually got this amazing root system of hope, and people wanting to do great things in the world, and sometimes it does just need a little bit of pruning to actually help bring those trees back to life, so that's kind of what we're all about.
Mark Jones
That is so good. I love it. That is a great note to end on. Louise Cummins, thank you so much for being my guest.
Louise Cummins
Oh, thank you for having me. It's been fantastic.
Mark Jones
I've loved the conversation, and look forward to seeing you again.
Louise Cummins
Excellent. Thank you.
Mark Jones:
Now, one of the things that I really was reflecting on after my conversation with Louise is this idea of the underground forest. Honestly, never thought of it before. I didn't know it was a thing, but such a sense of hope was the feeling that I had. You know, just imagine there's all these devastated forests and yet there are root systems underneath that can be revitalized.
And I just think, you know, there's plenty of negative things in the world. It's always good to come across something like that. But if you can permit me, I think it is a bit of a metaphor for some of the challenges many brands face today, whether it's in the security area where you're being hammered by this public perception, you know, what are you doing with my data, whether you are in another space that is being, really challenged by perhaps it's budget, things that are going on or perhaps you're at a point now with what's going on in the economy, you're feeling like maybe we've got to change our story or expand in certain areas and close other things down. There's plenty going on. I think for a market of the underground forest is a really great metaphor. When things are a bit tough or you're not sure what to do, you got to dig a bit deeper. You got to find out what's still below the surface and what can you bring to life again.
So having a bit of fun with that metaphor, of course, but I think it's a really inspiring way to think about our role as marketers and how we can drive change through our organizations.
So that's it for this episode of The CMO Show. As always, it's great to have you with us. I encourage you to tell your friends and share the episode, find us on all the social channels and you can follow us there and also visit us on the web at Impact Institute dot com are you.
We'd love to hear what you think of the show. Always up for any guest suggestions and it's just really great to be able to continue this conversation as we think about the future of marketing. So that’s it for now, until next time.