Jennifer ten Seldam on brand beliefs at SEEK

Jennifer ten Seldam, Marketing Director at SEEK, sits down with host Mark Jones to discuss brand beliefs and influencing customer behaviour through storytelling.

The most effective way to activate organisational purpose is by influencing belief and behaviour. 

So, how do you build a sustainable and trusted brand in a competitive market? 

Jennifer ten Seldam, Marketing Director at SEEK, posits that marketers need to reflect their audience’s beliefs and core emotions in their brand strategy. 

“[Job seeking] is emotional at all levels, on a regular basis, situation normal and particularly now. The way we communicate with customers has to reflect that, and we have the role to bring perspective to the problem, and make a really overwhelming challenge feel smaller and more manageable.” 

SEEK’s response to the impact COVID-19 has had on their customers’ levels of career stress and anxiety came in the form of an innovative audio campaign, SEEK Sleepmix - a collaboration between SEEK, the business bringing job seekers and employers together, and Indigenous Australian rapper, Briggs.

“Half the working population has had their working life impacted, and one of the things that we found really interesting is there’s 44% of people saying they’re staying up at night worrying about work.” 

“We worked with Spotify’s algorithm and a sleep and music expert, Bill Thompson from Macquarie University to really pull the experience together. So it’s designed to deliver advice to you in the middle of the night that actually helps you come to grips with what you’re struggling with but then also takes you off to sleep.”

Jennifer recognises the important role marketers play in ensuring brand communications efforts match up with the customer need state, and the impact they can have on an organisation at large - beyond the marketing program.

“If you can’t construct a story that achieves your desired level of influence then you’ll never be able to sit at the table and say 'I am an advocate for the customer,' or 'marketing can play a role in driving business strategy, not just communication strategy'.”

Tune into this episode of The CMO Show to find out how marketers can drive growth and foster loyalty by telling stories aligned with customer needs and brand beliefs.

Resources

• SEEK Sleepmix
• The SEEK Sleepmix Is Helping To Ease Anxiety And Put You To Sleep

You might also like…

• Louise Cummins on marketing, innovation & storytelling at H&R Block
• DJ Dikic on solving pain points & designing ‘joyful’ CX at Tint
• Fiona Le Brocq on brand relevance

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The CMO Show production team

Producers – Charlotte Goodwin & Stephanie Woo

Audio Engineers – Tom Henderson & Daniel Marr

Got an idea for an upcoming episode or want to be a guest on The CMO Show? We’d love to hear from you: cmoshow@filteredmedia.com.au.

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Transcript:

Host: Mark Jones

Guest: Jennifer ten Seldam

Mark Jones:
If we look at human nature, behavioural economics, politics, religion, sport, all walks of life - the influence of personal and organisational beliefs is undeniable. Beliefs inform the way we identify and tell stories, and marketers can use storytelling to shift beliefs that inform and inhibit buying behaviour, drive growth and foster customer loyalty. So with all of that considered, my question to you is - what does your brand believe in?

Mark Jones:
Hello friends! Mark Jones here. I hope you’re well. It’s great to have you with us again on The CMO Show podcast. My guest today is Jennifer ten Seldam, she’s Marketing Director at SEEK, which of course is a famous organisation worldwide helping people get jobs. Jennifer is a purpose-driven and people-centric marketing leader. Prior to her current role at SEEK as marketing director, she helped hire people into the marketing team, so she’s seen this role from lots of different perspectives. She’s also got a keen interest in storytelling just like me, and in her role, she’s constantly looking for ways to develop strategies for growth that have storytelling at the centre. So we’ve got this great conversation for you about how an organisation like SEEK can use its beliefs, its purpose and its understanding of its identity to drive business, and how marketers can experiment with new creative platforms for communicating their messaging, and connecting with customers. So, let’s go to my conversation with Jennifer.

Mark Jones:
Great to have you with us, Jen.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
Thank you for having me.

Mark Jones:
I'm going to hit you with a slightly curly one. Describe the SEEK brand for me. What does it feel like to you?

Jennifer ten Seldam:
This is a great... it's an awesome question. I don't think that's too curly. I feel like we have a really strong sense of who we are and it's really acute. To be honest right now when the employment market is just all over the shop, to be honest. So the SEEK brand is... it's an employment brand first and foremost, we are synonymous with job search as I'm sure most people know.

Jennifer ten Seldam: But we are an incredibly supportive brand, we're a very insightful brand, and we're a very inclusive brand.I think all of those elements are very present in our personality. We are here first and foremost driven by our purpose, which is to help organisations succeed and help candidates progress through their working lives. So that's whether they're trying to find a new job, change careers, get better at their current job, anything career oriented basically. And the brand really supports that purpose. So we are there as a career partner, no matter what the career challenge, and right now we are feeling the weight of that responsibility given COVID.

Mark Jones:
Well, one of the reasons I ask is that it's such an emotionally charged sector that you play in. So on the demand side we need the right people, typically now, and on the supply side it's all the emotions of should I go for another job or perhaps I need one and I need the job now or I can't find the job. So it seemed to me that was a good place to start because you're a bucket of emotions as a business, right? And I wondered how you reflect on that as the marketing director?

Jennifer ten Seldam:
You're bang on, job seeking in particular as part of the wide gamut of things we support from careers is particularly emotional and really challenging. Having the right job makes all the difference to your life. I think that's one of the things that for me and everyone else at SEEK and particularly marketing really keeps us going, particularly now. It is tough, people do want help. It doesn't matter what stage of the career you're in, there is always a challenge that feels quite often really overwhelming.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
Right now if you are out of work standing out in a really crowded job market is tough and people need advice on that and that's what we're here to help provide, we've got a lot of insight on that topic. You might not be unemployed but you might be working really differently. Half of the job market is telling us that their working life has been impacted in some way so remote working is tough, we've all got Zoom fatigue, it's really hard to collaborate well, particularly if you don't have the right online tools. We're all adjusting to this new version of normal. And that's really challenging and balancing that with your home life and everything that goes along with that is really tough too. So you're right, it's emotional at all levels, no matter... on a regular basis, situation normal and particularly now.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
So we feel like the way that we communicate with customers has to reflect that, and we have a role to be able to bring perspective to the problem. Maybe a new way to look at it that really helps what can seem, like a really overwhelming challenge feel smaller and more manageable. So that's really what we're tasked with.

Mark Jones:
I want to talk about some campaigns that you've been doing in just a moment, but before we get there I think a lot of people don't realise it is a global brand and it's interesting you've come from the startup days. I think SEEK is almost part of Australian business folklore or certainly the landscape anyway, very well understood brand, Andrew Bassat founding it of course, and then growing to this global business.

Mark Jones:
I wonder what it's like as you steward that brand, is it actually a legacy brand now? Because it's so well known it's almost a staple part of the Australian business landscape but it's also in the media too so it's kind of part of our daily lives. When it becomes a legacy brand, what sort of challenges does that pose?

Jennifer ten Seldam:
Yeah, that is something we talk about a lot. It's a huge responsibility because it is such a well known brand and we are super fortunate. I mean I've worked in banks before who are obviously very well known, top five brands, but beyond that a business like SEEK is quite unique in that unprompted brand awareness sits kind of in the '90s, it's crazy. Which is great, in terms of you don't need to spend a lot of time and effort telling people who you are.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
What a really big challenge is for us is telling people how we've evolved. Businesses don't exist for over 20 years and not change and survive, and what people know us as is a jobs board. That's where we started in the garage, it was taking what happened in the newspaper and bringing it online. SEEK has evolved over time to become this AI-driven matching machine. Our value proposition is so much stronger in that space now where we can really pinpoint the right person for the right opportunity and bring them together in a really effective way.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
And that part of our offering is not known so well. We've also extended our business in a number of different ways. We have SEEK Volunteer, we have SEEK Learning. So we have a really strong educational offering. SEEK Business if you want to go into small business ownership or sell a small business. So we really look at the full gamut of employment opportunities for people.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
The problem is though when you've got a business that is so well known and as you say a legacy brand and known for SEEK and you shall find, which people still to this day remember it, so strong and so part of our vernacular. Trying to bring them on the journey of who SEEK is now, is a really tough process. That's where doing things differently really comes in.

Mark Jones:
But I wonder if a bit like Woollies, which are the fresh food people, had it for a while, took it away, brought it back. Nike does just do it I think every year or two years because it's really core. I wonder whether the SEEK and you shall find it thing is something you shouldn't wrestle against but just kind of continue to thread in. Is that part of your strategy or how do you think about that history?

Jennifer ten Seldam:
Yeah, SEEK... I don't want to denigrate the past either. SEEK and you shall find was absolutely right for the time, it has a lot of equity. Our positioning at the moment is this way forward, which is a lot more encompassing of different types of employment challenges, and I do think it's important that we move to something that is still as compelling but encompasses the broader business value and takes us into a different space, particularly because the competitive landscape now has changed quite a lot as well.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
So where SEEK for a long period of time was ‘the’ jobs board, there's a lot of different jobs board options out there now and we're quite different today. So I think in order to really differentiate yourself in market, you need to be reflective of the full value that you offer and that's what we're trying to do.

Mark Jones:
Okay, well given all that background, take us into the present with this interesting campaign which is looking at things from an audio perspective I think is quite fascinating. Sleepmix, tell us about that.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
Sleepmix we're really proud of, actually. It's something that has kind of been germinating for a little while as this interactive concept we wanted to get out, it felt super relevant given the impacts of COVID. So as I said before, half the working population has had their working life impacted, and one of the things that we found really interesting is there's 44% of people are saying they're staying up at night worrying about work.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
When you look at search traffic you see the majority of searches for career-related advice happen between 10 o'clock at night and three o'clock in the morning. So you're like ‘god, that's a lot of people not sleeping!’. And I think we all found that really relatable. 

Mark Jones:
Right, so 3:00 AM's where you go maybe I could be a rocket scientist, you know. Your brain's not really working very well.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
Yeah, or how do I bring this up with my boss? We've all had that moment. So it's like god, there is something we can do here, we're a brand that has career advice, but this is when they're worrying about it. How can we deliver advice in a way and at a time where people sorely need it? So that was kind of the insight it was all based on.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
Then at the same time we were looking at this flood of COVID-related advertising that entered the market and feeling really uncomfortable with motherhoody, full of empathy but ultimately not full of a lot of value. It's like we feel you but people wanted help.

Mark Jones:
You can be too sincere.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
Yeah, totally. But you can also just look like you're filling air that you bought and now you've got to put something out there, and it was really irritating. So we sat down and we said, do you know what, it's time for some real talk. It's not like people don't know what's going on out there. This is not Voldemort, you can say its name. COVID is here, it's real, people aren't sleeping, it's affecting our work, there's been job loss. Don't sugarcoat it. Let's have some real talk and then figure out how we can bring some real value to the situation. So we have SEEK Sleepmix, so if you go to seeksleepmix.com.au, the journey that you'll find there is that you pick a challenge that you're struggling with at this point in time. You connect to your Spotify account. There is a non-Spotify version but our preference is the Spotify one and we take that challenge and we link to your Spotify account and what we do is generate a customised Sleepmix which is career advice that's voiced over by Briggs and then a customised list of tracks that are designed to help you get off to sleep.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
We worked with Spotify's algorithm and a sleep and music expert, Bill Thompson from Macquarie University to really pull that experience together. So it's designed to deliver advice to you when you need it in the middle of the night that actually helps you come to grips with what you're struggling with but then also takes you off to sleep.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
We just felt that was a really nice combination of things to help give people perspective, and soothe them a little bit in a really shitty time. The real talk aspect of it, which is actually where the collaboration with Briggs came in, who's an Australian rapper that some people may know. We really love the idea that rap as a medium or as a genre reflects what's happening in society and it says it how it is. Briggs has got a particular style that works really well to deliver that message. So we gave him a fairly free reign and said talk about what's happening out there now and how people might be experiencing that. That's how the bedtime rhymes component was born, which is kind of like bespoke musical tracks that he's put together that talk about what's going on right now and how people might be feeling.

Mark Jones:
Yeah. I think look it's wonderfully creative and I can see the insight connection here, so you've looked at how can we help people and it's driven by this moment in time that we're all experiencing. Which begs me to ask with the Sleepmix campaign and the other campaign you've got in market, what are you looking at in terms of outcome? So what's the driver? Clearly it's not awareness.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
No, it's not awareness. I think there is an overarching... our long-term goal is to get people to understand that we offer more than just job search, that we are there from an advice perspective. This is a very different way to provide advice. So from our brand tracking, seeing that people are picking that up and understanding that there's an extension to our offering is key.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
In terms of Sleepmix itself, seeing who is your typical traffic to site type measures and engagement on site type measures. But the real value that we look for is in the value that it delivers to the brand but also the value that it delivers to the individual. Did they say it was helpful, did it actually do what we hoped it would do in terms of sending them off to sleep? So looking into qual research around whether it's actually doing the job is super important for us.

Mark Jones:
I hope you've got, in your questionnaire there, I don't remember, which is kind of key right? What were the songs like? I don't remember, I fell asleep, that would be key.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
That's the job.

Mark Jones:
That's the job. Hey, the other angle to all of this too is a brand like yours, it's really key to understand the values, and we've touched on this. You talked about your purpose at the top of the show and how really that's infused all of your activities. I wrote a book called Beliefonomics, quick plug, all about the impact of our belief systems and how we use that through storytelling. So you can imagine my delight when I go to your about page and I see this set of beliefs. To summarise and skip through them, some of them are like persevering through obstacles to get it done, doing the right amount of thinking upfront, creating a community where individuals are valued, doing the right thing for SEEK, not what is popular. So on and so on. There's actually quite a few values, it seems like as an organisation you've taken a lot of time to think about how to be a values-led organisation. Maybe just give us an insight into that from your perspective, how important is all of that thinking from a marketing strategy perspective?

Jennifer ten Seldam:
It's critical. I mean, our values and our culture really is the source of SEEK, I would say. We have some incredibly talented people, we have best in field experts right across the board, marketing included. But none of that works in our organisation if you aren't aligned to values and if you're not super strong on collaboration. That's really key to the whole mix because SEEK is not a business that is heavily process driven. It's not particularly territorial. What we want to do is get people that are really, really good at their stuff, that are willing to get in a room and collaborate on how you solve a problem.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
So when we hire initially we are absolutely looking for fit in terms of how well people align to those values and their attributes and their willingness to work in the grey with others, and that absolutely applies to the way that we operate as a marketing team. We have very clear centres of gravity we call them. So kind of the technical specialisations but very clear on poor accountability. But we work really well together using those cultural attributes and those cultural values to make sure that everybody at the table is heard, that has a very unique perspective, and that we problem solve as a team. So yeah. It's absolutely fundamental to how we do business across the board.

Mark Jones:
Yeah, that sounds a lot like startup DNA that's still in there, tech startup DNA, it's got all those echoes.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
I think there's a good point there in terms of tech startup DNA. When you start up you don't have a lot of cash to throw around, right? So you have to create culture as part of your EVP to draw in good people. So I do think there's a relationship between the two.

Mark Jones:
I want to be here, yeah. I wondered with all of them, is there one core belief that reflects your purpose and mission? Because there were so many beliefs about casting forward about what impact we would have in the world, but is there one that really stands out for you that kind of encapsulates where the brand's going?

Jennifer ten Seldam:
I think the one that I reflect on quite a bit is doing the right amount of thinking upfront. We are a heavily strategy led brand and we're in it for the long-term. If you look at any of the investor relations material or any of the speeches that Andrew Bassat's done, he talks about this a lot. We're not in it for short-term results, short-term returns, we are in it for the long haul. He's thinking about where SEEK is in 10 or 15 years, and that's the same way we think about the brand.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
So we are very deliberate in every move we make about evolving the brand as well as evolving the platform. So that one really sticks out for me particularly when we're doing planning, we don't do campaigns that are knee jerk reactions and we don't invest in things just because we're seeing a dip in a moment in time because our horizons are much further out.

Mark Jones:
In my experience, a lot of marketers and CMOs really want to hurry strategy and planning. We're really quick to run to tactics and strategy and get this campaign in market now. Would you agree?

Jennifer ten Seldam:
I think absolutely. And every role I've had before this that would definitely have been the case and we're incredibly reactive. Whereas this is... I always say this is not just for any SEEK people listening that have a vested interest in this, but this is the best job I've ever had for that very reason that you are given time to be very considered and very deliberate in what you do. I also have the benefit of working for a marketer, so our managing director was our marketing director, that's how I got this gig. She went up and I went up, which is fabulous. So she has a really good understanding of the value of investing in your brand for the long-term as well. So to be given that space to do the right amount of thinking upfront and not just react to sales spikes or what have you is really important.

Mark Jones:
I can imagine many people saying though well that's all well and good because you guys have got buckets of money and investors and you can afford to do that, but what about smaller companies? Do you think they can still afford to spend time on strategy and giving themselves a moment to consider the best way forward?

Jennifer ten Seldam:
I think it's even more important. I'm sure, there's definitely a level of needing to be opportunistic when you're smaller and you do need to be nimble, and that's the biggest challenge for business brands and businesses as they get bigger is still maintaining a level of agility when you've got the space to do more thinking upfront. But I think when you have less budget, and more to gain, you really need to sit down for a minute and say what are the most important things we can focus on given my restrictions on human resource and given my restrictions on budget? Where can we put our effort to get the best bang for buck? That takes time to digest and to work through.

Mark Jones:
Changing direction, I want to talk about customer profiles because you also mentioned how important the job seekers are to the SEEK universe, quite clearly. Doing that at scale and personalising it with AI, and to quote your company video that I watched, it talked about... I did my homework.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
I was going to say, you really have.

Mark Jones:
Yeah. Developing more meaningful relationships. Tell me about your experience building out customer profiles at scale and how do you work with other teams on that? I'm sure there's lots of touch points. And then of course once you've really got your head around who these people are, that gives you the insights for marketing, but just first things first, what's it like to build out really detailed customer profiles?

Jennifer ten Seldam:
We work really, really closely with our product team that kind of own the core experience on site, and that's obviously where we gather a lot of our data about our candidates in terms of what they're searching for, what they're doing on site, it's the benefit actually of capturing all of your customer experiences online, is you have line of site pretty much all of the activity, whereas if you run a bricks and mortar business that's slightly harder to get a grip on but we really are fortunate in terms of being able to get a really good grip on what customers are doing when they interact with us. We couple that with really strong digital media capability. We do all of our media strategy and buying in house for digi, so the guys are using our DMP to really inform how we then deal with those segments as we go to market on the outside across paid and owned.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
We work closely with product also on the experience side, because I think it's really important that not only are product and our UX designers looking at what works well in the customer experience, but from a brand perspective we want our brand to really be infused through the experience. So there's this real balancing act between UX principles and brand principles that we're focused on working together on.

Mark Jones:
So who owns the customer?

Jennifer ten Seldam:
I think if you asked anyone at SEEK they'd say we all do. We are relentlessly customer focused. Marketing really has a mandate within SEEK, it should be the voice of the customer. I'm very proud of our customer strategy and our customer insights team, I think they are best in class. In many organisations, and I'm sure we find that marketing is still the comms team, marketing has very strong strategic value within SEEK, we're expected to come to the table and advocate on behalf of the customer given that the foundational insight programmes for the business sit within our team. So that's a role we take really seriously.

Mark Jones:
Awesome. Let's talk about earned media now, and many people I think would be familiar with all the amazing earned media you get through the SEEK job ads, the stats that get pushed out there. I also noticed them being used on the blog or the newsroom part of your website. So quite clearly it's serving a couple of purposes. There's some content marketing going on around that. What's the strategy that you've got around how to use effectively what's a defacto index for the economy?

Jennifer ten Seldam:
The strategy really is that first and foremost we've got a responsibility to share that insight with the market because we are the strongest proxy for what's going on with the labour market, and we've definitely seen media inquiries go through the roof since COVID hit because... it's why it's called unprecedented, no one really knows what's going on, so they're looking for sources to shed some light on that. So it plays obviously a really important thought leadership role, it's great to be in a position where you are a proxy for such an important part of the economy.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
And then from a government and a broader business community perspective, there's a lot of interest in our job ad tracking as that proxy for how much employment activity is, and we also share that on the candidate side to say this is where the jobs are now. It might not be in the industry we're in, but this is who's hiring. So it also plays that dual role on both sides of the marketplace for us to be able to provide guidance to candidates on well, maybe if you can't get work here, have you considered using transferable skills and applying over here. So that's another way that we can provide value using the same set of insights.

Mark Jones:
Now, let's talk LinkedIn. Are they a frenemy?

Jennifer ten Seldam:
Yeah, it's interesting right because they're an important channel, they're a really important social media platform in terms of reaching professionals and business advertising. They are also a means by which some people choose to look for work or look for referrals so they do probably sit squarely in that frenemy category I would say.

Mark Jones:
Yeah, because you can apply direct, right? Not that I have.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
We're very different propositions, but yeah.

Mark Jones:
Okay, so what's your perspective on the future of social media? Because that is, as you rightly point out, a channel, and an increasingly expensive paid one at that for most brands. But really there's a lot of focus, hyper focus at the moment I think on the future of social platforms as it relates to customer privacy, authenticity, whether it can be trusted. So the role that it plays for an organisation like you I would have thought it must be quite an acute area of focus.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
Yeah, we watch that space with great interest, and there's those competing tensions of people getting more and more aware of how data is used and being sensitive to how their data is shared and potentially used for good or evil. That kind of pulls against this addiction people have to social media. And they're wanting to use it no matter what. So being able to regulate those two sides or those two tensions is really tough, I think. I'm watching all the media around TikTok with great interest because I think that's exactly what we're seeing play out.

Mark Jones:
It'll be interesting to see, as you say, what happens in that space. Kind of last area but just broadly speaking, storytelling, one of my favourite subjects in the universe. There's an interesting story you built out obviously around the Sleepmix campaign and you're telling lots of stories every day through the index and on your website and so on. What's your view on how storytelling can be best used by CMOs and marketers?

Jennifer ten Seldam:
Storytelling is one of my favourite subjects too and as you can probably tell I do like to talk.

Mark Jones:
Works out well for a podcast.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
I know, it'd be pretty dull if I didn't, right? I think for me there's two things. One is if you want marketing to be a strategic player in a business, you better know how to tell a good story and it needs to be a story that is rooted in fact, really connected to the stories that are happening around the rest of the business, but really simple and compelling at the same time. You can't use jargon, you need to be able to get to the crux of the matter really quickly and you need to be able to engage a variety of different people with different agendas. So if you can't construct a story that achieves your desired level of influence then you'll never be able to sit at the table and say ‘I am an advocate for the customer’ or ‘marketing can play a role in driving business strategy, not just communications strategy’. So I'm really passionate about that side of internal storytelling.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
Then in terms of the communication aspect, we're in the business of intentional communications. We have a goal, whether that's shifting perception or shifting behaviour or shifting both, and the story that you tell needs to be constructed in a way that achieves that aim. So for me, both sides, storytelling is present both in the strategic role of marketing but also obviously super important in the communication side of things as well.

Mark Jones:
Yeah, great. Well, you certainly got plenty of stories to tell. Jennifer, we have skipped across so many topics in a short period of time. And I mean that positively, it's been a really, really insightful interview. I appreciate your time with us today on The CMO Show, and all the best with sending people off to sleep and also of course-

Jennifer ten Seldam:
In the best possible way.

Mark Jones:
In the best possible way. No one's done that on this interview. And obviously helping people get jobs in a very difficult time. So again, thank you very much.

Jennifer ten Seldam:
Thank you, thanks for having me.

Mark Jones:
Hope you enjoyed my interview with Jennifer ten Seldam. Such a good conversation to talk about our beliefs, and I love how congruent their behaviour is with their beliefs, and the storytelling that they have been able to wrap around all of that. And so with all of that in mind, it’s of course important to remember that job seeking at a time like this is so emotionally-charged, and it is interesting to hear how SEEK is listening to its customers, and supporting customers through creative campaigns.

Although we’ve heard a lot about how businesses are continuing to change their strategies to keep up with everything that is going on out there, this conversation to me was a reminder that we need to make sure we put time and effort into being effective, agile planners when it comes to marketing and storytelling. We have to be both considerate and deliberate with our messaging so that we can make sure that we get our story heard. 

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