Lisa Hresc on the power of partnerships (The Benevolent Society)
According to Lisa Hresc - Director Brand, Marketing & Communications at the Benevolent Society - effective marketing strategy is built upon:
- careful listening to customers and staff,
- identifying and understanding needs,
- devising ways to address those needs; and
- capturing emotive stories of the journey and impact.
“I truly believe in storytelling. It always has to be genuine. The true authenticity of their journey,” says Lisa.
“For me, the unscripted brand stories that we're doing right now with staff and with clients are going to build a huge montage of breadth of people and where they have struggled in life, and then how and where they were able to get that support that they needed and how they're feeling now. So it's a real journey - and staff included. They're front and centre, so that's why we wanted to do their stories as well.”
Lisa leads the marketing function of Australia’s first charity that provides services for people with disability, aged care, child and family.
With more than 15 years’ experience in commercial marketing working for brands including the ABC, Lisa understands the importance of taking a strategic approach to engaging and sustaining relationships with stakeholders.
“I always look at the various stakeholders and what the mutual beneficiaries are. It's always a partnership, rather than stakeholder management. There is a place for everyone, and everyone has a say, but it's about how do you benefit each other and how do you partner with each other?” Lisa says.
“In 2021, we are still advocating. So the vision hasn't changed, the purpose hasn't changed. It's just about, how do you talk it through and articulate that in today's current climate when it is so fragmented with different legislations and more people?” Lisa says.
To learn more from Lisa and find out how marketers can build trusted stakeholder relationships, and communicate brand purpose through storytelling - tune into this episode of The CMO Show.
Resources
You might also like…
- Ryan Barlow on brand responsibility at McGrath Foundation
- Eva Ross on understanding impact at Sendle
- Amy Smith on brand purpose at T2 Tea
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The CMO Show production team
Producers – Charlotte Goodwin & Stephanie Woo
Audio Engineers – Tom Henderson & Daniel Marr
Got an idea for an upcoming episode or want to be a guest on The CMO Show? We’d love to hear from you: cmoshow@filteredmedia.com.au.
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Transcript
Host: Mark Jones
Guest: Lisa Hresc
Mark Jones:
Choosing the right partners to do business with is critical. Like anything in business, partnerships have the potential for great things, and - of course - less than great things as well. The wrong partnership can drive churn and reputational risks - whereas, the right alignment can amplify your brand’s strengths. Working with another brand that echoes your purpose and values can expand your brand’s sphere of influence and propel it into untapped markets. So as a marketer, how much time and effort are you investing in strategic partnerships?
Mark Jones:
Hello friends! Mark Jones here. It’s great to have you with us again on The CMO Show as we continue to share stories about purpose-driven brands. Speaking of which, my guest today is Lisa Hresc. She is Director - Brand, Marketing & Communications at the Benevolent Society - Australia’s first charity. She is also one of our awesome clients here at Filtered Media, so it is a real joy to be able to talk to one of the people that, we of course, spend a lot of time with and share her story with you. Lisa and I discuss building trusted stakeholder relationships, the role of trust and empathy in brand communications, and how marketers can communicate a brand’s purpose through storytelling - of course, all my favourite subjects! So let’s go to my conversation with Lisa.
Mark Jones:
Lisa Hresc, great to have you with us.
Lisa Hresc:
Thank you, Mark. Good to be here.
Mark Jones:
I got to say, I've been looking forward to our chat for quite a while. We do work together. It's just been a real privilege to work with you guys. We've had the opportunity to interview and speak with many people throughout the Benevolent Society, and actually had to fight back tears. Isn't that something?
Lisa Hresc:
That is! Shows you the passion within the organisation.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. And for those of you who don't know the Benevolent Society, what is the Benevolent Society?
Lisa Hresc:
The organisation started back in 1813 - so I would think we were one of the first charities. So the Benevolent Society was started by two gentlemen who wanted to support women, homeless women, single mothers with their children, as well as destitute males in society. So it was very advocate - and advocacy-driven - in wanting to support this side of Sydney predominantly. So that was 208 years ago. We still do the same. Society has changed. Unfortunately it hasn't in some areas. So the work that Benevolent Society does in its current state - we are still working with child and families that need our support, we're working with people with disabilities, and we're also working with our ageing population. So our whole vision is to support people - not give them a hand up - but support people and walk with them on their journey, to live their best life - in whatever that is - in their terms.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. And I think one of the things that was moving for me was just how committed frontline workers are to that journey.
Lisa Hresc:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Mark Jones:
And it's just an astounding thing. So it's great to hear actually that history and how it's continued to evolve - we'll get to that more in just a moment - but I want to take you back to some of the finer parts of your career to get to know you a little bit more.
Mark Jones:
ABC - so Marketing Communications Manager, Head of Corporate Marketing - you've had some really interesting roles, and then ultimately becoming the GM for Marketing Communications at ABC Commercial. And according to LinkedIn, 13 years.
Lisa Hresc:
I was, yes. So three really fantastic positions - and watching the ABC grow and digitise itself in that time was fantastic. We had a great MD, and he saw a really opportunistic vision for the national broadcaster to move itself into the digital era.
Mark Jones:
So that's Mark Scott, just to jump in there.
Lisa Hresc:
Correct. Yes. That's Mark.
Lisa Hresc:
He was a great listener. He loved the news. You'd want to come in and tell him something that you'd seen or read that morning - he'd already seen it. He was a bit of a news junkie, and stakeholder management, actually, I know we're going to touch on that later, that's something that I probably learned very well from Mark.
Mark Jones:
What was the interest in joining the ABC initially for you? What was the appeal?
Lisa Hresc:
Well, I was joining a new department, which was corporate marketing, which sounds quite odd for the ABC. This new department was set up so we could look at our audiences from a community base - so a lot of community events - and we had a digital exhibition trailer that we travelled around Australia. So we would meet communities on the ground in all regional areas and all of that, which was fantastic, because that's where a majority of the audiences that really hang on to the ABC that it is today, still are very loyal and are very, very much there. Within the urban space there is a lot more fragmentation, I would think, within the media space, so there's a lot more choice. So I think for what we were doing at the time, and we had been working quite closely with Triple J as well, and they were doing their Australian Way of Life and we'd go off to the regional centre and do a massive concert there for the people of the region.
Lisa Hresc:
So I think that still holds quite strong and it's still a focus for ABC. That role certainly looked after the community base, but then the other - which was to the other spectrum - was looking after our government stakeholders. Obviously it's federally funded, so we had to answer, as they did with Senate estimates, but it was more around how do we engage our stakeholders on both sides of the parties or three different sides, including a few others. Every year I would put on an event at Parliament House in Canberra and we would get over 275 senators, ministers, whips, all come and listen, and we would showcase pretty much what ABC had done for the year. And I'm not sure if they still do that now, but it was a fantastic for us to really show what we were doing in the regions for news broadcast - particularly emergency broadcasting, because that's quite a big thing for the ABC - and just the innovation, the introduction of, iview, ABC3, all of that fun stuff.
Mark Jones:
So in other words, a huge playground.
Lisa Hresc:
Huge playground. Huge playground of content, but also having that conversation with Australians - you know, which they continue to do.
Mark Jones:
And your role in marketing communications, you mentioned stakeholders, and it'd be interesting to talk about that, and just hearing the types of stakeholders, you've already mentioned, the community. So in other words, people who love the organisation. The senators - and I guess within that, some of them are for and some of them are against, in terms of how much funding the ABC should get and probably all sorts of other arguments.
Lisa Hresc:
And how much they get. Absolutely.
Mark Jones:
Right. Correct. And then you've got the detractors, particularly in the media, there's this long running saga, as we all know, about whether or not the ABC is living up to its charter or the charter should be scrapped and all that stuff, right? So, many and varied stakeholders - very complex, highly emotional. What was your, I guess, initial reaction to when you finally understood the landscape at a deeper level? What was your approach to mapping that and getting your head around it?
Lisa Hresc:
I think for me within any role that I'm within, I always look at the various stakeholders and what the mutual beneficiaries are. It's always a partnership. Rather than stakeholder management, I call them partnerships. So there is obviously a place for everyone, and everyone has a say, depending on where you're at. But it's how do you benefit each other and how do you partner with each other? So for me, it is a bit of a mind map as to working out where their position is, what their goal is and what are ours and trying to meet them. If they're the right partner, that's great. You keep moving.
Lisa Hresc:
Like with ABC, we signed on TEDxSydney for their inaugural broadcast. And we did that with them for about four or five years, mainly because I knew Remo. I knew the content. It was fantastic. It was perfect for the ABC audience. So that was a great partnership. Also in doing that, having to manage the stakeholders within ABC. So, why is this good for ABC, when some people don't think it is? I thought it was for the time that it was there and it certainly showed it increased the reach of our audience at the time to new audiences, as well as keeping those that are into that conversational space, very strong with us.
Mark Jones:
In that professional capacity, you describe understanding people and looking for benefit, and it's a negotiation approach really isn't it?
Lisa Hresc:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Mark Jones:
So it's sort of seeing it in that context, but-
Lisa Hresc:
A little bit of influence.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. But how do you deal with the emotional side of it too? Because it's I imagine, unrelenting.
Lisa Hresc:
Yeah. I haven't really attributed too much emotion to it. For me, it's about core business, especially when it is about business and partnerships. I think from my - back in the music days of sales and marketing, what is it that you need to reach? What is it that they need to reach? So I don't really take too much emotion into that. Sorry, I'm not cold. It's just, it's a business deal.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. But that's the answer. Because for some people it's highly emotive, but to be able to just leave that aside and get on with what needs to be done, I think is the only way forward. And then to jump from that to Mark Scott again, what did you learn about stakeholder management from him?
Lisa Hresc:
I learned to listen really carefully. Because sometimes, I think, you can go into a meeting or a deal without really thinking through what your needs are, let alone what their needs are. So I think you really need to listen to the stakeholder and understand their needs. It's like listening to a client or an audience member or a customer - whatever it is, you need to listen. And today we're all client centric, so absolutely. So for me, that's come full circle and I really love the fact that that's the way majority of businesses are looking at it, particularly in their marketing. You have to be client centric and clients could be your customer that's paying you. It could be your government stakeholder. Your client could be your community-based partnership. So whatever term you choose, everyone is at a different level. You need to understand and listen to them as to how you can help them.
Mark Jones:
What's the biggest challenge we face in being client centric though? Because I think we cut this up in lots of different ways from creating great customer experiences, to thinking of customers as subscribers who are just locked in now, and we'll take it for granted a little bit. But there's a spectrum of approaches to it. What stops us from really being client-centric?
Lisa Hresc:
I think if you think client-centric is one way. For me, client-centric is about engagement and you need to have a two-way conversation. So you can't have a client on board and go, "Great, they're they're signed on now. They're going to be doing this." Because they may not. You have to continue to deliver really good content, really good stories to keep them engaged.
Mark Jones:
I've grown up with the ABC and just continue to be fascinated by it as an organisation. It does exist solely for the purpose of the people, right?
Lisa Hresc:
Absolutely.
Mark Jones:
And it's always being challenged on that core mission - if you like. What I like about the concept of your role is that it's very meta. It's telling stories about a storytelling organisation, and the story is the people!
Lisa Hresc:
The people within the ABC - and similarly to the Benevolent Society, super passionate. Really, which I love. So for me, it was a great fit.
Mark Jones:
So what is it about leaders, and I'm talking C-suite here and directors and so on, where this customer centricity, this client centricity can seem like a new thing or a challenging thing that we've got to get our head around? Why is that so hard sometimes? I mean, it's kind of obvious when you grow up with the ABC, but when you come from the profit motive, you get distracted, right?
Lisa Hresc:
Absolutely you do. And especially when you have shareholders, which are your other stakeholders. But I think if you stay attuned with your customer and keep them engaged, that will speak to your profit. If you choose not to listen to your - or keep your customers client centric, then you're going to miss a whole heap of information that will help inform your decisions on products, on services, on everything. If you think, or you assume you have great customer service or you're delivering what you need to do, and then you're done for the day, then you're not learning. I think we continue to learn. And as I said before, customer centric isn't just your paying customer. It is your stakeholders and your partners and you need to listen to all of them.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. So in other words, we exist to serve.
Lisa Hresc:
I agree.
Mark Jones:
We exist to be there for all of them.
Mark Jones:
One of the, I think, most significant transformations, if we're to start now thinking about the social sector and what's been going on there from an NDIS perspective, and really the government has completely turned the tables on the way the whole sector operates, right? So the client centric, customer centric, where clients would come to Benevolent and they get to choose, right? So the government gives them the money to then pass on to an organisation like yours. That is - if you think about the 200 plus years of your organisation - that's turning the tables upside down effectively. It's like doing business all over again in a different way.
Lisa Hresc:
It is, and we're not the only organisation to be going through this transformation. I think within the sector, the government choosing to deliver NDIS packages, as well as aged care packages, is to give that client-centric view. However, there's a lot of legislation, and I won't go into that right now. And also the value to all Australians, to people that need to receive those packages and need the support. For the Benevolent Society that's not really changed. We've always done that. It's just the transaction, I guess, the back end of it has changed. So the service that we're delivering to our clients has not changed. It's just the backend, the accounting part has changed.
Mark Jones:
Got it. Where the money comes from.
Lisa Hresc:
Absolutely. So for our frontline, you mentioned them before, we have 1,200 that are delivering services for people with disability, aged care and child and family. They haven't changed their focus, because the focus is always the client. What has changed is the backend of it. So how we transact now with the government rather than - the customer does have to choose, which is great. So they have choice and control over which provider they choose. And we'll get onto the brand part as well, but it's just for me, if you continue to deliver fantastic service and your brand has set trust and reputation as has Benevolent Society for 200 odd years, you can't lose focus on that.
Lisa Hresc:
To some degree, the for purpose sector has had to switch up and become quite commercial, from a transactional sense, which is great fit for me because I love that part of it, and that's why I worked at ABC commercial. But it doesn't need to be, and it isn't profit based. So what you're doing obviously is anything that you earn on top, you reinvest, and we reinvest in our best practise, in our governance. We've had three Royal Commissions, so you have to be on top of all of that.
Mark Jones:
Yeah. And I think you make a really good point, if you like, the distinction between management, admin and practitioners and people who have a client living and working with clients. If you've been trained in social work for example, your entire universe is only about thinking of them and their needs and how I can support that. Yet still you need to have a connection between the two. And how have you managed that? Because they still also need to have a commercial sense, if you're a frontline worker, a sense of, “how long I can spend with this person or where the limits are or what my professional responsibilities are. Is there a transaction that I've got to consider at some point?” How have you thought about that?
Lisa Hresc:
Again it comes back down to our client stories and how we engage with them. And it's not to say that our frontline people are the only ones that do engage. We do have back office and community partners that do also engage with our clients. So it's not necessarily a disconnect. There is a connection throughout the organisation. We understand. whatever we do within our role within Benevolent Society, is that we are supporting people within Australia that need us. We're walking with them to support us. So whether you are in accounts or whether you're in marketing or whether you're in another area within the business, every little piece that you are doing is supporting that client.
Mark Jones:
And if you're in the commercial side of the universe, that is actually enormously profound insight. Where we've been talking a lot about purpose in the marketing sector for - well intensely, probably I'd say for the last two years, it's really been a drum beat in the trade media. And some of the research I've read talks about the limitations of just having a great purpose, but employees don't meaningfully see themselves connected to that. I'm not a contributor, right? I'm in accounts, I'm in - I don't know, the warehouse or something, and I'm not actually part of that purpose in a tangible, believable way. It would seem to me that in the Benevolent Society, it's possibly a bit easier.
Lisa Hresc:
We have a lot of passionate people and the work that we've been working on, we'll probably highlight that more with our brand stories that we're developing on clients as well as staff. And I think that resonates within the organisation and externally. If you do, like you say, get all emotional over it, because I think it's about related experience. If you can relate to a person that has a disability or an ageing parent, or people that are in times of crisis - Australia are very giving people. We always want to support those that haven't had the opportunities that we've had. So I think you'll find it won't be too hard for people to connect to.
Mark Jones:
What would your advice be to a CMO in the corporate space, thinking about that issue? How do I connect the passion of my people with this purpose? How would you do that?
Lisa Hresc:
Physically, I would be getting out and talking to clients, talking to staff, getting their stories and listening very carefully. It's that partnership that I said. It can be in different ways. It's not about managing stakeholders per se. It's really understanding what everyone needs within their life and how we can help affect that.
Mark Jones:
From there then, you mentioned client stories a couple of times, and I know that's a passion of yours. Tell me about the strategic importance of client stories and why you've got a real focus on that from a brand perspective.
Lisa Hresc:
Because that is how the Benevolent Society has grown over the 200 years. If it weren't for the two founders, if it weren't for the people at The Rocks that needed that assistance and that support to set up. I must say, one thing I do want to focus on - we will have the brand stories or the client stories and staff stories - is our advocacy piece, because the organisation has been quite strong in advocacy over many, many years.The organisation were one of the first in the world to have a fixed pension to stop poverty for ageing people, and also advocating for children and family - and changing the system. So this is where your government partnerships and stakeholder and changing those systems is where our organisation has more of a voice as well.
Mark Jones:
So that's probably the big distinction then is the advocacy is about the system, right? Let's change the system - if you like, preventative measures, if we can - as well as on the ground.
Lisa Hresc:
Absolutely.
Mark Jones:
With people, right? Are they the two main streams?
Lisa Hresc:
They are the two main streams because we can see what's happening with people out there, and what support are available. And if the system's not right, and the supports aren't there for Australians, then when someone needs to talk for them on behalf of them and the Benevolent Society has been advocates for that forever.
Mark Jones:
So what's your storytelling strategy then?
Lisa Hresc:
I think everyone has a story to tell, and I want to hear everyone's story and everyone has a right to be heard. So for me, the unscripted brand stories that we're doing right now with staff and with clients are going to build a huge montage of breadth of people and where they have struggled in life, and then how and where they were able to get that support that they needed and how they're feeling now. So it's a real journey - and staff included. The staff absolutely, they're front and centre, so that's why we wanted to do their stories as well.
Mark Jones:
Well, I'm not just asking, because I love the subject, which I do. But the reason for asking too is what are the stories that work? And I think this is one of the things that we constantly have to evaluate in marketing communications is if I think about my government stakeholders, what are the stories that will actually bring a tear to their eyes or convince them that they're spending their money in the right places? And then secondly, with the donors and the clients, that's a whole different set of storytelling, right?
Lisa Hresc:
Well, I truly believe in any storytelling - it has to be very true and authentic. In all the marketing that I've ever done, it's not really ever been too showy or false. It always has to be genuine and very authentic. So for me getting those true stories - that's why I say unscripted, because there'll be a couple of points where we can ask a couple of questions. However, it is really their story and them telling it. So the true authenticity of their journey. And for government stakeholders, we can show where we started with - supporting Australians to where they are now. And they're never going to be probably the best at everything, but they will get to where they want to go. They have their goals set in mind. People with disability don't choose to have that and so we help them.
Lisa Hresc:
We're almost finished editing a story about Darren who's a 50 year old. He was blind at birth, and then a couple of years in, it was discovered that he also had autism. So he's 50 now, and his mum has single-handedly supported him his entire life. It was only about three or four years ago that Benevolent Society’s Behavioural Support team came in - and it was of their choice, within the NDIS package. And he now - because he was non-verbal - he's now showing cues where he can verbally, this is at 50 years, tell his mum that he loves her, say that he wants to do this, or he knows his routine. Just that small little bit of support has improved his life - and his mum's - quite dramatically. And I must say, we talk about clients, but we are very holistic in our approach - because with anyone that is struggling, it's not just yourself, there's a family around you, they're your friends, your support group around you also struggle, because it's life. So we are there holistically trying to help.
Mark Jones:
So those stories that you're describing really are, if you like, an embodiment of the heart of the brand. It almost seems to be from a brand strategy perspective, pretty self-evident. But I can't imagine it's that simple when it comes to thinking about stakeholders and where are we going and who are we? And what should our brand be in the future? And all the questions that management typically have.
Lisa Hresc:
It has been a bit of a struggle - to be very honest and truthful. However, it depends on who you talk to, in which area. Most people are quite - they're very much on where they're at within the organisation. It's a very big organisation.
Lisa Hresc:
I think for our staff it has been quite difficult to enunciate what we are and what do we do. Because we do so many things for so many people. So getting down to the real truth of what this organisation is, and that's why we did do a bit of deep diving going back 200 years as to what the original purpose was and the advocacy work and the service work. And to this day, in 2021, we are still doing all of that. We are still advocating. So the vision hasn't changed, the purpose hasn't changed. It's just, how do you talk it through and articulate that in today's current climate, when it is so fragmented and there are different legislations, and there are more people.
Mark Jones:
And competition, quite frankly.
Lisa Hresc:
Competition, actually. Yes. So when the government did split up disability and it used to be managed by state governments and it was split up and a lot of organisations stepped forward and picked up different parts of it, it became quite tricky to be honest, to say the least, very tricky. And unfortunately, for people with disability, it's been a really hard road to navigate, but I think they're getting to a much better place. It's something that we do. And within our support team, our support centre, anyone can ring Benevolent Society. Anyone in Australia can ring them and ask for support. Whether we can deliver it for them, or we can put them on to another partner to help them, we will always find help for them.
Mark Jones:
So did that help with the unique value proposition?
Lisa Hresc:
I think so. And another thing we do is also best practise. So we ensure that we train our staff right up to a very high quality and make sure that they are very client-centric. Which to me, all of them are because they are so passionate. But it's making sure that point of difference is best in market for service delivery. But we also evaluate all of that. We evaluate all of our customer needs and the delivery of service.
Mark Jones:
And I got to say, it's been an amazing experience for me to walk as part of that journey, right? I don't want to foreshadow some exciting things to come, but what's your vision for where the Benevolent brand needs to be?
Lisa Hresc:
I think it needs to be more within everyone's eyesight, that top of mind, because it's a big charity that's been around for a long time. People may have heard of it, may not have heard of it. So it's come, it's dipped in and out of market for quite a while. So without getting too much out there, because we are a not-for-profit and we don't have huge amounts to be able to do mass marketing, it's more about the niche and telling those stories, that's where the brand stories will help - that word of mouth because it is authentic. So I think, the big sell, if you want, will be that we are there for everyone and there to do it their way.
Mark Jones:
Just a couple of things to maybe attempt to tie some neat bows around, I think, many, many different strands we could pursue, what's your best advice from your experience over the years? Connecting this sense of identity and brand purpose with activities, be it storytelling or advertising or anything? What's your best advice for thinking about that? You've talked about client centricity. You've talked about really understanding the golden thread, but what's your pearl of wisdom in that space?
Lisa Hresc:
I think for anyone that's starting in marketing or within a few years and wanting to step through, is to really look at the client journey for one thing, see where they're at because people do change. There is a lot of choice out there. So have a look at what people need. Is that what your organisation needs to deliver? So it's marrying up, who are you looking for? Narrowing it down to some degree, because we can be all things to all people, but what are you really good at? And how do you talk to them? Is it through storytelling? Is it a different way? It's finding out who your audience is and what you can deliver to them.
Mark Jones:
And then at a personal level, you've come from well, government and commercial into Benevolent and the social sector. Many people dream about that. And we've also had other people on the CMO Show who have made that jump. What's your advice for people in thinking about or doing that?
Lisa Hresc:
I think a lot of the skills that you learn across commercial and not-for-profit are actually interchangeable. I think it's just again about working out what it is that you can deliver to them.
Lisa Hresc:
I think just continue to learning, continue to understand what your client needs, if you're your own business or within a big organisation. And your client could be your CEO, really. What is it that you're trying to hit for the organisation? But, for me, it's always being true to yourself.
Mark Jones:
Lisa, I've loved our conversation. We probably need to do it again some time. Skip forward 12 months and get the latest on how Benevolent is growing and changing. I'm very keen to see how the Benevolent story plays out over time. So once again, thank you so much for being our guest today on the CMO show.
Lisa Hresc:
My pleasure. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Mark Jones:
I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Lisa. It was so good to speak with her about the way the Benevolent Society continues to live out the purpose and vision it set for itself more than 200 years ago. I loved her advice to CMOs and senior executives in the corporate space on how to align their passion with their organisation’s purpose - that’s of course, a big one for all of us!
Mark Jones:
And I agree with her perspective - taking a simple approach to talking and listening to the stories of clients and staff presents a unique opportunity for you to champion their truth, and to change the system and to ‘do good’ through their work - understanding their perspective and really being able to tell their stories brings a whole new shade and life and energy to your storytelling. So there are lots of really great ideas there for you to think about, and I’d love to know your thoughts! And as a quick reminder - if you haven’t already, please “subscribe” to The CMO Show podcast on your favourite podcast app, so you never miss an episode. Also be sure to head over to Instagram and follow @thecmoshowpodcast, and have a crack at guessing who will be our next guest each fortnight. So thank you for joining us on The CMO Show. As always, it’s been great to have you with us. Until next time.