Suzana Ristevski on simplifying complexity at NAB

Suzana Ristevski, Executive General Manager Marketing & CX (CMO) at NAB, sits down with host Mark Jones to discuss simplifying complexity, the relationship between data and brand, and the role of empathy in purpose-driven brand storytelling.

A 2018 Sprout Social’s survey revealed that 64% of consumers want brands to connect with them, and when they feel connected to a brand, 57% of consumers will increase their spending with that brand, and 76% will buy from them over a competitor.

With this in mind, think about who your customers are, and what your brand stands for:

• What is your brand doing to understand your customers’ concerns and challenges? 
• And how is your brand using customer insights to inform and improve the customer experience (CX)?

For Suzana Ristevski, Executive General Manager Marketing & CX (CMO) at NAB,  using empathy as an authentic lens for its messaging and marketing efforts, is a way that the financial services brand lives out its purpose of “serving customers well and helping communities prosper.”

“What [the NAB tagline] ‘More than Money’ means is that we are as good with people as we are with money. And I think in financial services, it's a big ask and something that we really aspire to,” Suzana says. 

“It’s so important to back ourselves into that brand positioning and make sure that the organisation is harmonised to it. You've got to stand out with your brand, and you've got to stand up with your creative.” 

Although the ‘4 P’s of marketing’ mix mostly remains constant, Suzana encourages marketers to understand that there are new tools and technologies available to help them better understand who their customers are, and how to simplify complex messages with creativity. 

“Map out what your customers want and then deliver it. You might not be able to deliver it in every instance, but this is where your strategic capabilities come in,” Suzana says. 

“Brand is even more important now because there is such a fragmentation of creative media, customer segments. The only way to cut through is to make sure that there's ideas there, creative, that are just brilliant.”

Suzana says that the challenge of achieving cut-through presents brands with a unique opportunity to do good by tackling customer pain points.

“You have to be bad to be good. It's that commercial play of who are you targeting, what insights have you got, what are you going to deliver and prioritising and actually saying no to things. No matter how much money you have, you've got to be able to stand up and make people feel good about themselves.”

To learn more from Suzana and find out how marketers can simplify complex messages with creativity, tune into this episode of The CMO Show.

And if you’re keen to hear more from Suzana on the topic of adaptive leadership, tune into AGSM’s The Business of Leadership podcast (produced in partnership with Filtered Media).

Resources

• More than Money | How we're helping build a stronger future
• AGSM's The Business Of Leadership Podcast - Ep 10: The Business of Adaptive Leadership  
• NAB asks Australians 'What is money for, if now this?' in latest campaign

You might also like…

• Ryan Barlow on brand responsibility at McGrath Foundation 
• Vanessa Lyons on brand transformation 
• Amy Smith on brand purpose at T2 Tea

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The CMO Show production team

Producers – Charlotte Goodwin & Stephanie Woo

Audio Engineers – Tom Henderson & Daniel Marr

Got an idea for an upcoming episode or want to be a guest on The CMO Show? We’d love to hear from you: cmoshow@filteredmedia.com.au.

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Transcript

Host: Mark Jones

Guest: Suzana Ristevski

Mark Jones:
“You asked. We listened.” Four little words that when lived out authentically by a brand can have an immense impact. And authentically is the keyword there. Saying “we listened” means nothing if you haven’t committed to understanding your customer’s concerns and challenges, and acted on the feedback to improve operations and/or communications. So, as a marketer, how do you use customer insights to inform and improve upon your customer experience?

Mark Jones:
Hello friends! Mark Jones here. Great to have you with us again on The CMO Show as we continue to share stories about purpose-driven brands - of course, our big focus for 2021. My guest today is Suzana Ristevski.  She’s the Executive General Manager Marketing & CX at NAB - one of Australia’s Big 4 banks of course. And we’re going to talk about the role of trust and empathy in brand communication, the partnership between data and brand, simplifying complexity, and how marketers can communicate a brand’s purpose through storytelling - in other words, we’re going to talk about all my favourite things! So let’s go to my conversation with Suzana.

Mark Jones:
Suzana Ristevski, thanks for joining us!

Suzana Ristevski:
It's a pleasure. How are you?

Mark Jones:
I'm really well, and I have been thinking a bit about the banking sector, and I'll tell you why. When I think about the big four, there's actually one word that comes to mind for me. And that word is ‘complexity.’ From a storytelling perspective, you've got a lot going on. There's a lot of narratives that I want to start off by just kind of getting your perspective on. If you think about it, the industry is changing. Customers are changing. Australian society has changed radically in the past 12 months, obviously the global pandemic. So first up, how are you feeling about 2021?

Suzana Ristevski:
I've got to say after 2020, 2021 surely can’t be worse.

Mark Jones:
It's got to be upside from here. That's the story, right?

Suzana Ristevski:
And it feels like we're heading into some sense of normality after the year that was 2020. But you know what, I think there are times in your career when you look back and you go, "Wow, that was bloody hard, but I learnt a lot.” And 2020 has to be right up there. I think about the time I've been a marketer - which has been a relatively long time now - the last time I was exposed to this amount of change was probably a Global Financial Crisis. They're not easy. It's not easy times. Lots of change. You're absolutely right. But geez, ready to rock and roll in 2021 after learning and experiencing so much in 2020.

Mark Jones:
Yeah. I've got to say that's definitely been a shared sentiment.  One of the things I've noticed about NAB campaigns over the years, and particularly the ‘More than Money’ campaign going back four years, has been this idea of how well can we tap into the zeitgeist? How well do we know and understand the feelings and the emotions of customers? And that's of course core of any marketers experience, but I'm particularly keen to understand how you see the world.

Suzana Ristevski:
Yeah. Look, what ‘more than money’ means is that we are as good with people as we are with money. And I think in financial services, it's a big ask and something that we really aspire to that links very, very nicely to our purpose, which is serving our customers well and helping communities prosper.

Suzana Ristevski:
We all know fin services, banks - post the Royal Commission - there was a big issue with trust. I was delighted that our brand positioning has been in place for a number of years and that we've been very consistent with that. And now more than ever, it's so important to back ourselves into that brand positioning and make sure that the organisation is harmonised to it. You've got to stand out regardless. You've got to stand out with your brand, and you've got to stand up with your creative. It's an old truth, but the pandemic has forced us to provide a new perspective. 

Mark Jones:
Yeah, the interesting thing about conversations about the way people do business, the way people use money - it's effectively a lifestyle conversation. And you are competing very much with the Afterpays, and the credit institutions, and the - all sorts of different ways of imagining how life can be lived - as it were. And I find that an interesting space, because quite clearly, you've got the credibility over the years to talk about that. What are the ways that you've found really connect with customers in that context? What can you do that would really build on the credibility? It's this balancing act, right? Credibility, trust, the we love the security feeling of a big bank together with this dynamic, we'll be there with you type idea. How do you get that across?

Suzana Ristevski:
Yeah. Well, there's a couple of things to think through as we're thinking about that. I think the first thing is - and this is probably true for a number of brands - the first thing is that let's not kid ourselves. It's not like you wake up every morning and go, "I'm going to think of my bank today." But, there are pivotal times in your life, probably six or seven times, Mark, you will absolutely be very, very in tune with your bank and the way the bank makes you feel, or the way other banks make you feel. And they're in life moments. The first time you get a job, the first time you get your bank account, the first time you buy a house, perhaps when you're going through a divorce or when you're looking at setting up your business. They are times where the bank is incredibly important to you.

Suzana Ristevski:
So I think as a brand, as you're thinking through these things, there are moments in time where the bank is incredibly important. Make sure that as a brand, you are top of mind and that there's positive connotations to you. And we all know that there's long-term branding versus short-term direct response advertising, but we've got a job to do. We have to be able to make sure that people have an affinity with the brand so that when they are thinking about it, there’s positive attribution.

Suzana Ristevski:
The other component, if I was to simplify things, you have to be able to deliver what the customer wants. And the customer does want ease. So when they will think about you is in those big, big moments - or when actually you've let them down. When they're wanting to check their bank account and the app goes down, or they aren't able to get their money out of the ATM because the ATM's not working. You gotta make those things easy - seamless -  so that those pain points don't appear in a customer's mind on a daily basis. And then you've got to provide a personal connection. Make sure that people understand that what it is that you are actually wanting to be, what you're saying to be, resonates with them, makes them feel good about themselves actually, not themselves about the brand and get on with it.

Mark Jones:
So, I'll tell you why I love that insight. The marketing nerds among us, think a lot about old school personas. Who's my customer, how well do I understand my customer? How do I segment, slice and dice, get data, serve up different campaigns to different types of people? All that stuff. I'm curious, have you mapped out customer scenarios and got your - say top 10, top five - customer scenarios where you know there's peak emotion? And this is make or break, turn left, turn right, dump the bank, get a new bank, love my bank forever moments? Have you workshopped that sort of stuff?

Suzana Ristevski:
Of course, of course. And so you've picked up on a point about the nerdy marketers. If you were a trained marketer - and I was trained years ago and there's so much more to learn along the way - but trained marketers go to the fundamentals. This has never changed. Go analyse the market, the competitor set and your customers. Go find out whatever you can find out about them - insights, insights, insights. Then go work out who you're going to target because you can't be all things to all people. They want you to work out who you're going to target, develop value propositions that those customers want and then execute flawlessly. Those four things will never ever change.  What has changed over the years though, are the tools and the technologies, and even the way we communicate and the way we tell stories.

Suzana Ristevski:
As a marketer, you've got to know when to tap into all the tools - all the technology - and you can get overboard. But the most fundamentally important thing, which you are alluding to is map out what your customers want and then deliver it. You might not be able to deliver it in every instance. This is where your strategic capabilities come in. No matter whether you're in NAB, or whether you are a sole proprietor of a small business, you will never, ever have enough money to do everything you want.

Mark Jones:
Ain’t that the truth.

Suzana Ristevski:
You have to be bad to be good. I think the secret is too - it's that commercial play of who are you targeting, what insights have you got, what are you going to deliver and prioritising and actually saying no to things. Doing that, making sure that your brand is aligned to that. But then also beautiful creative - like sometimes we underplay the beautiful creative.  No matter how much money you have,  you've got to be able to stand out and make people feel good about themselves.

Mark Jones:
That is so true. The degree to which you can use these customer insights around scenarios to really stand out, I think is the differentiator.  It is really hard in this broad sea of competing interests that you're up against to find those emotional moments where people are genuinely in a place of either stress or optimism or hope, and it's make or break, right? 

Suzana Ristevski:
I break it up, I guess, in sort of two ways. Again, trying to simplify - my team are always hearing me say, "Let's try and simplify the complex." The first thing is, you refer to personas. That is insights. Personas could be based on geographical, psychographical, demographical information. And this has always been the case. You’ll segment. You’ll go - perhaps someone that's aged between 20 and 30 will behave a different way to somebody that is 50 to 60. And you go off and you do all your research on that. We have got personas the way you would describe personas, kinds of people. And it's actually more behavioural type of segmentation. Just because you're 20 to 30 doesn't mean you're exactly going to be behaving the same way as someone else that's 20 to 30. But actually, in financial services, it does turn out that age does have a significant play in big moments. Because at that age, you are likely to start your first job, or likely to buy your first home.

Suzana Ristevski:
You can create communication strategies on personas. Then you use the funky tools and data that we've got these days, the signals. I would be mortified if you had experienced 10 interactions with NAB and we haven't picked up the signal. What do I mean by that? That if you'd call the third time asking the same question, that's a signal. That's a signal to my marketing team to go, "Oh, there's a problem here. Call this customer and find out what it is that they want." 

Suzana Ristevski:
The challenge for us is actually use the technology, use the algorithms, use the triggers, use the signals to help us actually help our customers. 

Mark Jones:
Yeah. I couldn't agree more. I love the tools and I love being able to attribute success, but it does strike me that in this world of people looking for purpose, for significance, for how do you fit into my world? -  as a narrative and these scenarios - that what we now need to do is think about, as marketers, as marketing leaders, how can we rediscover a purpose around creativity and getting those insights really quickly? 

Mark Jones:
And then how do we think differently about these scenarios? Because I think if people in your world of complexity are faced with that similar challenge, there's a real pressure there. Creativity takes time. So how do you balance speed - the desire for speed to insight and satisfy all my senior stakeholders - with this idea of we've got to get this right.

Suzana Ristevski:
Yeah. And like you've tapped into this notion of, well, you've now got to match in science. You've now got to think left and right. You've now got to think data and brand, and that is a head spin for it. It can be a head spin for a lot of people, a lot of marketers. Because some people are wired to be data orientated, and some people are completely wired to be creative. But what the CMO of today needs is both. So to answer your question, how do you get speed and insights at the same time? You will do what you would traditionally do and gather your insights around the brand. That takes time. It takes time to validate the brand, is the brand playing in the right space? Is the brand resonating? That is traditional research and it needs to be done and it can take time.

Suzana Ristevski:
But now simultaneously, I've got instantaneous insights. Did they or did not like the creative? I can do AB testing on 10 different creatives and work out - instantaneously - which creative to put up or not. So I'm getting short-term insights through data, through AdTech, MarTech, all those tech tools that helped me change and pivot daily, instantaneously. And then there's also that long-term branding work, which you do need to make sure you invest and sense check - where is your awareness? Where is your consideration? Where's your brand attribution? And then merge the two. But that's the fun part of the job, right? The fun part is you've got daily tilting - which we did last year in the pandemic. It was going on. We tilted overnight. It was extraordinary to watch.

Mark Jones:
Can you apply those ideas to one of your campaigns? I think ‘real people telling real stories’ might be one, where - if I recall, it was unscripted. Just put the microphone on, see what happens?

Suzana Ristevski:
Yeah. We did that. So if I think about what happened to us last year, right, global pandemic, literally overnight, 30,000 people went working home when we said we couldn't. We got 650,000 incoming calls on how can you help us with mortgage, deferral payments or small business deferral payments on their loans. That is the amount of calls we would have got in a year. So there was tilting going on with the business -  how do you get people to answer 650,000 calls when that's what we get in a year? So there was already this dynamic in that the culture of the organisation was you go back to your purpose - serve your customers well. We all tilted. I had marketing people that were trained overnight to take calls. That's the level of tilt.

Suzana Ristevski:
So we had that dynamic going on. Then we had the dynamic of the decisions that I had to make, finite marketing expenditure, not understanding whether there was going to be absolute chaos and people were never going to be able to apply to their loans. We made a strategic call to not do any acquisition. 

Suzana Ristevski:
You have to understand, as a CMO, what the business strategy is and where the business is going first and foremost. I knew exactly what was going on from a strategic commercial perspective.  We're serving customers. I then made decisions based on that very quickly. Set up principles with my team and said, "Knock yourself out guys, tilt to supporting customers. It's all brand work. We're not doing any direct response advertising."

Suzana Ristevski:
We had created principles and brand, and we were very strong on what our brand stood for, that I could literally send three or four principles to the team, and they went off and self-regulated and off they did. And there wasn't a question because there was trust of the leadership team that we understood what we were trying to achieve as an organisation.

Suzana Ristevski:
2020 was quite a shock for all of us, but there were things that we did - and culturally, it was extraordinary - that we want to hang on to. People don't like to be told in every instance exactly what to do. Be really, really clear. Provide clarity on what the objectives are of the organisation and what the accountabilities are at the marketing team, and in fact, the person within the marketing team and then let them fly.

STING

Mark Jones:
Your comments are interesting in light of another thing that you've been working on, I understand, over the years is getting teams away from this idea around who owns the customer. And I think that's fascinating at a couple of levels because obviously you've got fiefdoms within any organisation and some people feel like they own more of the customer than you do. But actually, if you think about all of us as people, we are owned - quote, unquote - by dozens of different brands. We selectively want to be part of certain brand communities. If I think about sports brands or even sports teams, we passionately want to be part of this thing.

Mark Jones:
And there are other brands that are “take it or leave it.” I think it's a really important strategic conversation because I don't think we can afford to pretend that we own anything, or any customer. They own themselves, right, and we're here to serve them. So how do you have that conversation internally? 

Suzana Ristevski:
I mean it’s interesting, right, so firstly, no one ever owns a customer. You are absolutely right. And even if you think that you've got beautiful brand attribution and your customers are just so passionate about your brand - could turn overnight. So, to think that you ever own a customer is probably at your peril. I've always said, "If anyone at NAB owns the customer, we're doomed." Every single 35,000 employees has to feel like they are responsible for the customer.

Suzana Ristevski:
The question is, how do you democratise? I see marketing as providing insights. If you think about the blocks of time and the core responsibilities that different parts of the organisation have, operations are responsible for making sure that we get the money to the customers. And risk is responsible to making sure we don't lend to people that aren't going to - it's not good for them if we give them the money because they won't be able to repay it. I see one of marketing's key responsibility is to democratise insights. So, we are trained to turn data into insights, and then insights can be used to drive good strategic solutions for our customers. 

Suzana Ristevski:
We know how to do that. We know how to do research. We know how to pull models together. We know how to tell stories. We know how to communicate. We're all part of the value chain and that's our job. And my view on it is, as long as the more people that understand what the customer is after, where we fit relative to the market or what our competitors are doing within the organisation, the better it is for our customers and ultimately our shareholders as a result.

Mark Jones:
Conversely, what's the cost to the business of having you spend more time on education as it were. So, it's not like you're just opening up all of your IT systems, all of your MarTech and letting anyone dive in there because they might draw the wrong conclusion.

Suzana Ristevski:
Well, that's exactly right. And that's one of the things. So when I say democratise - and that's exactly what's been happening Mark. People have been creating their own insights or using their own data. They interpret the data differently because we haven't set up processes or good ecosystems for people to get the right data and the right insights. And even with traditional research, I find it horrifying when I walk into an organisation or into a department and there's five different types of research that have been paid on one problem. And I said, "Why did we pay for that five times?" And actually five times with five different answers is incredibly confusing for an organisation.

Mark Jones:
Just to pick up on an old quote of Steve Jobs that I particularly love. He said, "People don't know what they want until you show it to them. Our task is to read things that are not yet on the page." How do you get that right in your context?

Suzana Ristevski:
It's much like the start of a love affair, isn't it? You don't know what you want until you see it.

Mark Jones:
I love it.

Suzana Ristevski:
From a marketing perspective, he's right. If he had said to people, "I'm going to give you this phone and you can take photos with it," they're going to go, "What?" They're not even going to ask for that. They're not going to say, "I want to phone with photos on it." My view on it is - actually, I get some really interesting things on trying to solve for, “What is it the customer's pain points are, what can we fix for them?” Ask them those sorts of questions or get an understanding of what they're excited about. And I think that's when you can come up with really exciting, differentiated value propositions, of which Apple did and continue to do.

Suzana Ristevski:
Top pain point for us is if a customer asks you to do something and you say you're going to do it -  if you don't do it, they are detractor. Number one complaint. “You said you're going to call me back in two days and you didn't” - like, fix that. Or the thing that they're most excited about, we know. We've gone off and done research for 20 years. We know that people are most attached to, most emotional around their life moments. So deliver to that. But I would also say sometimes we get so caught up with the data. I do think a bit of guts and instinct needs to be played into that. Try it. Try some creative, go do some research.

Suzana Ristevski:
And these days you don't have to go off and spend millions on production - creative production for a TV ad, right? Start slow. Get it out there with some content on your social feeds and see how that fits. And if you've tapped into a universal insight - because it's the universal insight that you've got to tap into - and it's working on small scale, then go off and spend the money on beautiful TV ads. 

Mark Jones:
I think when they talk about, "Oh, we're being brave," the bravery is - and I've heard people talk about the data driven marketing side of things, that there should be no sense of risk or bravery because we have all the data that completely backs that up. But it actually might be something a little bit off-piste. And you don't actually have the data. That's where it becomes, "Yeah, we'll try it and we'll see what what we do." My question in that context is, what's your view on the big campaign? Because we've talked about some long running narratives and campaigns at NAB now. Do you think that these one, two, three year story arcs, narratives, will continue to be the way that you go forward? Or are we going to see more small scale test and learn type scenarios that you're speaking about?

Suzana Ristevski:
Look, I think it's incredibly important to have some big creative, beautiful ideas. I think it's incredibly important to be consistent - unless you've got millions and millions and millions and trillions of dollars in spend. Because here's the thing. One, you're making an assumption that people will actually identify your advertising. If you go off and do one brand idea - let's say, and it's on air for six weeks and you get 60% reach three times frequency. If you change it then for the following six weeks and then change it again, you're not creating any remembrance or memorability or attachment to your brand. So I am all for big brand ideas - more so now because it's actually very fragmented out there in the marketplace. Everyone's got content, right, I think that actually I've tilted my - and I'm commercial data tilt. But my view on it is actually brand is even more so important now, because there is such a fragmentation of creative media, customer segments. And the only way to cut through is to make sure that there's ideas there, creative, that are just brilliant. 

Mark Jones:
So as you think about where we're headed for this year and the years beyond,  how has your role changed, and what do you think you can do to take I think yours and your team's agenda further forward?

Suzana Ristevski:
Yeah. There's different predisposition to brand and an understanding of what brand can do in an organisation in different businesses. So I've worked for organisation where it’s just like, forget even talking about brand to the board. They're not at all interested. Whereas NAB is incredibly interested in brand, but from the point of view of how will it drive strategic NPS, positive customer advocacy. So I think, one, what's the predisposition to brand? The way we tell our story, is very different depending on are they predisposed to brand or not?

Suzana Ristevski:
So if they are predisposed to brand, you can have a conversation around share a voice. And the link between awareness and consideration and long-term. Market share versus brand spend. But, we all know that's very - well, it's theoretical. But some people are open to that and you can have that conversation and say, "Hey, my competitor is spending twice as much as we are. If we continue on this trajectory, we will lose 0.6 points of market share, not good." And they'll go, "Tick, off you go."

Suzana Ristevski:
If they're not predisposed to brand, the conversation is more around, “Let me prove to you how good we are short-term campaign effectiveness and efficiency.” Because that is a whole lot easier to prove. And you go in there and say, "You give me X dollars and I will deliver you Y in revenue on the assumption that we get 60% conversion on all applications we bring through." That's a very easy conversation to have with the board, the finance guys, the CEO, and everyone gets it. Prove that out and say, "And by the way, I'm carving out X for brand because I need that."

Mark Jones:
Not unlike telling your story to an external audience is know your target audience. It's that old adage of talking their language, right? Has that particularly changed?

Suzana Ristevski:
Everyone's very interested in reputation in brand. So more attached too. I mean the Royal Commission. The board are very, very interested in how we are perceived by our customers, by our other stakeholders and how brand and brand spend can be part of that.

Mark Jones:
To that point, how have you connected brand spend with trust, this notion of measuring and quantifying it? Because trust can actually just be a proxy for fear.

Suzana Ristevski:
Well, we triangulate data sets, right. We've got two or three different sets of data that we use and we do triangulate it. So, external data set - rep track, we all use to measure our reputation. That measures consumer customers. And business customers are in. Strategic NPS reputation is measured through a third party agency that measures prospects and customers. We do have different data sets so that we are able to track where are we at, and we look for theme. We know that - and the way I position it to the board or to our stakeholders is - there's paid media and there's unpaid media and there's earned  media. Paid media is a place where we can actually control the messaging. If you want to do reputation - and we've still got work to do - it is fantastic that we've got people talking about us, but you can't control that message. So, I highly recommend that some of the messaging that gets out there is messaging that we have control over, which can help create support and the messaging that's created around us to be positive.

Mark Jones:
There's a lot of conversation about empathy with the customer. But one of the things I've picked up from our conversation is actually empathy with my colleagues and particularly my superiors, right? What are they going through? And I wonder just how much time or maybe how many opportunities we've lost by not having a greater sense of empathy. 

Suzana Ristevski:
I think it's extraordinary. If I leave you with one point, we, as marketers, we all want to prove to people that we know that what we're doing is the right thing. But one of the fundamentals of psychology - in every instance, so whenever you're telling storytelling - we tell people what we want them to know, rather than what they need to hear, right, marketers want to tell the board what they know. Marketers want to tell customers what they want their customers to hear. But the trick in all this is empathy and understanding, what do your customers want to hear from you, what do the board want to hear from you, what do they want to get involved in? It's a nice nuance to remember. Tell people what they're interested in hearing about rather than what you want them to hear.

Mark Jones:
Suzana Ristevski, it's been fantastic to have you on the show.  Thank you for your insights. So thank you so much for being our guest on the CMO Show.

Suzana Ristevski:
Pleasure, enjoyed our conversation. Thanks, Mark.

Mark Jones:               
So there we go. Suzana Ristevski, I hope you enjoyed the conversation. So good to talk with her about the way NAB uses empathy as an authentic lens for its messaging and marketing efforts, in order to build lasting customer relationships. I also loved her advice to CMOs and senior executives on how to simplify complex messages with creativity, and why customer pain points present a unique opportunity for marketers to do good. Lots of really good things to think about there. 

Mark Jones:               
Finally, as a quick reminder, if you haven’t already, please subscribe to The CMO Show. You can find us on your favourite podcast app, so you never miss an episode. And if you want more of The CMO Show - which I know you do - head over to thecmoshow.filteredmedia.com.au and you can check out our back catalogue of more than 130 episodes. There’s something there for every single one of you, I’m quite sure of it! So thank you again for joining us on The CMO Show. As always, it’s been great to have you with us. Until next time.